Thursday, January 08, 2009

Cardinal Renato Martino calls Gaza a "concentration camp"


Cardinal Renato Martino, the Vatican's justice and peace minister, made his comments in an interview with the online Italian news website Il Sussidiario.net.

"Defenceless populations are always the ones who pay. Look at the conditions in Gaza: more and more, it resembles a big concentration camp," said Cardinal Martino.

He said it was in the interest of neither party to carry on fighting and urged both to show more "willingness" to hold peace talks.

"If they can't come to an agreement, then someone else should do it (for them). The world cannot sit back and watch without doing anything.

"We Christians are not the only ones to call this land 'holy', Jews and Muslims do so too. The fact that this land is the scene of bloodshed seems a great tragedy," he added.

Israel's offensive on Gaza has killed almost 700 Palestinians and injured 3,000 since Dec 27, according to Gaza medics.

Aid agencies have declared a "total" humanitarian crisis in Gaza, owing to the ailing stocks of basic food, water and medical supplies.

The pope is due to visit Holy Land sites in Jordan, Israel and the West Bank in May.

56 comments:

nickbris said...

Concentration Camp,extermination camp,Genocide,it all adds up to the same thing.

Unless somebody does something soon it will all end up in conflagration.

This is of course only a build-up to an attack on Iran and then we will all be involved,What exactly is the United Nations for?.

old believer said...

Let us hope and pray someone does something about this massacre of Palestinians.

No one appears to care enough to do something about Israel's aggression.

Michael Petek said...

If only Cardinal Martino would be a little more robust in distinguishing between true and false religion.

Israel is waging war in the interests of its own national security, since the Israelis quite reasonably beg to differ with Hamas' policy of incessantly rocketing them.

Hamas wages jihad in furtherance of false religion (and therefore blasphemously), and with intent to destroy Israel and establish Islamic law on the ruins.

God specifically states in the Ten Commandments that He will not leave unpunished anyone who misuses His Name.

Hamas' religious beliefs convince its members that the Jews are the offspring of apes and pigs.

They also convince them that the Day of Judgement will not come unless the Muslims fight against the Jews and kill them, until the Jews hide themselves behind a stone or a tree, and the stone or tree will say: O Muslim! O servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me! Come and kill him!

Except for the Gharqad tree, for it is the tree of the Jews.

(Hadith collection Sahih al-Bukhari: Book 041, Number 6985)

Dion said...

'Defenceless' is a curious term for a city state from which 4,000 missiles were launched into Israel (sic) in 2008. The Hamas government of Gaza could have ended this onslaught in an instant if it wished. As usual, Palestinian Christians are caught in the crossfire between fundamentalist Islam and secular Judaism.

George said...

In an earlier post Fr. Ray you write 'It is divine love, incarnate in Christ, that is the fundamental and universal law of Creation'.

Isn't it ironic that throughout the Centuries the Holy Land has been anything but 'Holy' or peaceful and this will only change when, as the Hermit Father says in another of your posts, the people learn to love and respect one another as much as they love themselves.

The solution is in their hands alone. It cannot be forced on them from the outside by some greater show of force, it never works that way. The transformation to real Holiness and peace comes from within each individual heart and mind.

Somehow at some point in time this has to happen in the Holy Land. Please God may it be sooner rather than later, so that no more blood has to be spilt on a soil already soaked through with the blood and tears of human suffering on all sides. There are no winners in this situation, everyone loses.

Prayer will help and we should turn to Our Blessed Lady for her powerful intercession. Born a Jew, the mother of Jesus Christ our Saviour and highly respected by the Moslems, she is a link between us all and will hear and answer our prayers.

Michael Petek said...

George, I don't think it's ironic at all that the Holy Land has been anything but peaceful.

Now consider Father's comment:

'It is divine love, incarnate in Christ, that is the fundamental and universal law of Creation'.

This love, exercised in mercy, never refuses forgiveness to anyone in whom God sees repentance.

But in all respects, and particularly in what concerns the social order centred on the Kingship of Christ, this love always puts God and His holiness first.

Hamas stands for things which are, objectively, supremely offensive to God, as sins against the First and Second Commandments and which are particularly consequential when committed on land which is holy.

Daniel Leary said...

I am so pleased that there are some people who can look at this ghastly situation in a clear and unbiased way. This is not a case of the "goodies" and the "baddies"
as so many want to believe. I hate the anti-Jewish feelings expressed by many Catholics. Apart from anything else, please let's remember where we come from.

epsilon said...

If Michael Petek thinks he is being true to the Magisterium by ranting against Muslims and saying
"the Israelis quite reasonably beg to differ with Hamas' policy of incessantly rocketing them."

First he needs to remember that:

The Vatican opposed the formation of the state of Israel in 1947.

From Haarretz.com:
Relations between Israel and the Vatican "were better" before the two established full diplomatic ties in 1993, according to a senior Vatican diplomat and former top Holy See envoy to Jerusalem.

Israel has also failed to keep promises to ease travel restrictions on Catholic clerics and remove taxes on Church-owned property in the Holy Land, Monsignor Pietro Sambi said in an interview posted Friday on the Franciscan Order's terrasanta.net Web site.

"The Holy See decided to establish diplomatic relations (in 1993) with Israel as an act of faith, leaving to latter the serious promises to regulate concrete aspects of the life of the Catholic community and the Church in Israel," Sambi, the Papal Nuncio to the United States, said.

"If I must be frank, the relations between the Catholic Church and the state of Israel were better when there were no diplomatic ties," he continued.


Secondly, he needs to remember that Hamas were a tiny insignificant movement until they were financed by Israel in order to weaken Arafat, as Daniel Barenboim reminded us on Radio 4 last night.

Israel aren't alone in the guilt for all the genocide going on in Gaza. They are being propped up by the United States of America and the Tony Blair crew in the UK for their own evil purposes.

Gerrard said...

Mr Petek sounds like an American Protestant awaiting the restoration of Israel before the second coming. Mad, bad and dangerous.

Michael Petek said...

Epsilon, whether the Vatican opposed the creation of the State of Israel in 1948 or not is inconsequential.

It is God who decides the times of the nations and the limits in which they will live (Acts 17:26).

Israel is no exception, save that a special decree of divine providence preserves the Jewish people, and their bond with their ancient homeland, as indestructible.

As for 'ranting against Muslims', what do you think a Catholic is supposed to say about Hamas and its false religion which it seeks to enforce by the sword, putting to death anyone who converts from Islam to Christianity and reducing both Jews and Christians to the degrading status of dhimmis?

The Catholic religion alone has the fullness of truth and all the means of grace, and we can thank God that He takes account of invincible ignorance among non-Catholics and non-Christians as exonerating from the sin of separation.

But Hamas do not strike me as being men of conscience. They insist that Jews - and implicitly Our Lord Himself - are the offspring of apes and pigs, whose extermination is a sine qua non for the Last Judgement.

The King of Israel now gloriously reigning said two thousand years ago that he who takes the sword shall perish by the sword.

He meant what He said.
--------------------------------
Gerrard, if you read Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Dr Ludwig Ott at p486 you will see that the conversion of the Jews is one of the signs of the Second Coming of Christ.

The political existence of the State of Israel is a providential fact, as it is for any other nation, and likewise would be impossible unless God willed it.

nickbris said...

We are constantly being fed the LIES that all this trouble is "anti Jewish" it is not it is about Israel with the support of the most powerful nation on earth the USA stealing Palestinian land.

Iran has the largest population of Jews anywhere in the World outside of Israel,they are allowed to travel back and forth into Israel without any trouble.Israel has been trying to persuade them to leave Iran but they are happy where they,and they are treated very well.

Michael Petek said...

Nickbris, the present war in Gaza has nothing to do with Jews stealing Palestinian land, since the Israelis removed themselves from Gaza several years ago.

It has everything to do with Hamas waging religious war against infidels in order to impose on others the joys of life under Islamic law.

Because theirs is a false religion their cause is unjust out of hand.

Classical Islam cannot tolerate the emergence of infidels and dhimmis asserting sovereignty on land which was once dar ul-Islam, including the whole of Spain and Portugal and the entire Balkans as far as the gates of Vienna.

The Armenians tried it and were slaughtered. The Jews tried it and succeeded, but they have to defend their gains by force of arms.

Anonymous said...

nickbris

Thanks for the insight about Jews in Iran. Do you have a source?

I read elswhere an hypothetical experiment:
1. The Palestinians and Arab states are deprived of all weapons. Do the Israelis keep attacking them? No, why should they?

2. The Jews are deprived of all weapons. What happens next to Israel?

You all know the answer - Jews killed or driven into the sea.

Jim

Gerrard said...

Who the devil is "Ludwig Ott"? What is his contribution to the Magisterium?

Michael Petek said...

Gerrard, Dr Ludwig Ott (1906-1985) was the German author of Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma published by and available from TAN.

Ott was ordained a priest in 1930. He received his doctorate in Munich (1931-1936) under Martin Grabmann and was mentored by him in studying the development of medieval theology. In 1936 he was "extraordinary professor", and in 1941 a full professor of dogmatics at the episcopal philosophical and theological college in Eichstaett. From 1960 to 1962 he was the rector of this Catholic university.

alban said...

Gerrad: Ludwig Ott was a German theologian who published the work referred to by Michael Petek in the early 1950s. The statement regarding the conversion of the Jews being a sign of the Parousia was his opinion; as far as I am aware, there is no official Church statement in this regard.

Concerning Mr. Petek's assertion regarding Islam, I would direct people to what the Church officially teaches, and which we as Catholics are bound to accept.

"The church has also a high regard for the Muslims. They worship God, who is one, living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth, Who has also spoken to humanity. They endeavour to submit themselves without reserve to the hidden decrees of God, just as Abraham submitted himself to God's plan, to whose faith Muslims eagerly link their own. Although not acknowledging him as God, they venerate Jesus as a prophet; his virgin Mother they also honour, and even at times devoutly invoke. Further, they await the day of judgment and the reward of God following the resurrection of the dead. For this reason they highly esteem an upright life and worship God, especially by way of prayer, alms-deeds and fasting."
(Nostra Aetate #3)

So, the Church has a high regard for Muslims; all Catholics should be of a similar mind. There is nothing I care to add concerning the situation in Middle East apart from the need to invoke the outpouring of Holy Spirit upon all concerned.

Volpius Leonius said...

I am pretty sure if France had fired over 3000 rockets into England al through 2008 then the English people would expect the government to put a stop to it.

And the only reason they are stuck in the Gaza strip is because of the suicide bombings people like Hamas were carrying out when the check points were open.

Its sad for those who don't support the violence, but then when given the vote the majority choose Hamas so what does that say about them?

I don't have much time for Israel either, that country was itself after all founded through the use of terrorism against the British.

The only people who are really innocent in all this seems to me to be the Christians.

Using words like genocide and massacre is a bit over the top as far as I am concerned as well, if that is the intent of the Israeli's they are doing a pretty rubbish job, they wouldn't even need a ground offensive for that they could just carpet bomb the whole place like we did at Dresden.

Lets put it into perspective there are about 1,500,000 people in the gaza strip. Over the last eight years leading up to this there have been just under 5000 deaths as a result of the conflict and how many of them were terrorists? That is not genocide that is for sure. The figure I am hearing for this current phase so far is 434 and that includes Hamas militants who are trying to kill the Israelis.

With a population of 1,500,000 the Israeli's are going to have to seriously up the casualty rate if they are indeed attempting to wipe the inhabitants of the Gaza strip of the planet. I don't believe they are this bad at killing so I have to conclude that they are not trying to do that at all.

gemoftheocean said...

I got a thought, how about Hamas starts loving their children more than they want to shove Jews in the Gas Chamber?

Here's a "lovely" Muslim woman who says that Jews need to find an oven. Charming.

Hamas needs to stop running its terror campaign. There IS no "two state solution" when Hamas wants to kill all Jews.

Hamas hates its own children enough to hide behind their diapers.

And like Michael, I'm a little sick of clueless cardinals who can't tell real the difference between real and false religion.

I think the "somebody" who's going to stop this insanity is going to be Israel, because the UN is going to back terrorist Hamas every time by their thumb sucking and support for Hamas.

Roll on, Israel.

Nick said...

old believer said
''No one appears to care enough to do something about Israel's aggression''.

What about the war that Hamas has been waging. Should Israel sit back,watch and do nothing? If that is to be the case who will Hamas target then?

Francis said...

Fr. Ray,

My view of extract from Nostra Aetate quoted by Alban is that it was written at a time when we as Catholics understood far less about the nature of Islam than we do now. Back then, for Westerners, it was a far-away thing, remote from our everyday lives. Now we experience it directly, whether in the headlines, or as the religion of work colleagues and next door neighbours.

It's all very well, in a 3-page document oozing 1960s optimism, to make emollient noises about a far-off religion professing belief in the one God and encouraging prayer and fasting. We have now read the small print, as it were.

Michael Petek said...

Alban, I don't have any problem with the Church's high regard for Muslims.

I knew the late Dr Zaki Badawi and had a high regard for him. When he died my first thought about him was that he was a man of conscience, which is exactly what the Chief Rabbi said of him.

But I do not have a high regard for Muslims who wage armed jihad to impose their social order on others, nor who persecute and kill Christians in countries like Nigeria, Indonesia, Sudan and Palestine.

I do not have a high regard for President Ahmadinejad of Iran, where the Majlis has just passed a law imposing the death penalty for apostasy from Islam.

And I do not have a high regard for Hamas, who insist that Jews are the offspring of apes and pigs, whose Charter includes the Sahih Bukhari hadith I quoted in my first post, and refers to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion as authentic.

LF said...

Just to point out, with regards to the Hamas 'war' against Israel, it is known that around 12 Israelis have been killed in the last seven years by Hamas rockets (although numbers of deaths from rocket attacks are never reported by the mainstream media). Compare that to the 500+ Palestinians who have died in the past few days as a result of the Israeli invasion, and the thousans more over the past few yeras. Christian Zionists will try to justify this as a 'reasoned' response, largely on account of the 'false religion' of the Palestinians. This morning I heard on the Today programme that Isreali solidiers evacuated a group of Palestinian families into a large building, and then hours later, Israeli jets repeatedly bombed the building, leaving only three surviving children, one of whom died in hospital. These people do not deserve to die because they are muslims. As a Christian, I could not justify this in terms of the second coming of Christ. These children who are dying every by Israeli missiles are barely old enough to know that they are Muslims. Anyone who justifies this is on the side of war and death, not peace. That is all I have to say on this matter.

Paul Knight said...

Both sides are to blame, in my opinion, but seeing as Israel is by far the more powerful of the two, I believe it has a greater responsibility to show restraint. I don't mean doing nothing, but being more careful. Whilst I don't believe Israel deliberately targets civilians, they are guilty of gross negligence.

I'm sure most have heard of the principle of double effect. St. Thomas Aquinas writes about it in the Summa Theologica when he writes about legitimate self defence.

St. Thomas lays down the criteria which states that an action having foreseen harmful effects practically inseparable from the good effect is justifiable if upon satisfaction of the following:

1. the nature of the act is itself good, or at least morally neutral;

2. the agent intends the good effect and not the bad either as a means to the good or as an end itself;

3. the good effect outweighs the bad effect in circumstances sufficiently grave to justify causing the bad effect and the agent exercises due diligence to minimize the harm.


I think it's quite clear that Israel has not satisfied the third by a long way.

Gerrard said...

The kill rate in recent years is 100 Palestinians killed by Israelis to every 1 Israeli killed by Palestinian.

nickbris said...

ANONYMOUS try Googling Jews in Iran

Henry said...

This one is a hopeless cause. I have described the background here.
What should we do about Gaza

Volpius Leonius said...

The kill rate is imaterial in my opinion, it is not Israel's fault that they are better able to protect their people from Hamas than Hamas are able to protect the Palestinians.

In fact lets be honest it doesn't even look like Hamas are concerned with protecting their people, all they seem to care about is killing Israeli's.

This is what people need to grasp, Hamas are quite willing to get their own people killed just as long at they get to even attempt to kill Israeli's such is their fanatical hatred of Israel that killing is more important than life to them. You need look no further than the suicide bomber for evidence of this.

Catholic teaching is that you must accept an invaders authority when resistance becomes futile and all you are doing is prolonging disorder and death.

Auricularius said...

Thank you Paul and Henry for your sensible comments ... in sad contrast to most of the rest of the thread:(

Michael Petek said...

LF, you are drifting from the point.

The issue is not the number of Israelis killed relative to the number of Palestinians.

The issue is, who has the causa iusta ad bellum?

Certainly not Hamas, since they are waging war in furtherance of religion, with intent to destroy Israel and impose Islamic law and the rule of the Muslims.

In classical Islam the establishment of the State of Israel was and remains unjust per se because it was established by dhimmis who refused to accept their place under Islamic rule.

Jihad must be waged against all unbelievers, who must become Muslims or be put to death, except for Jews and Christians who may keep their lives and their religion provided that they adhere scrupulously to the dhimma, or pact of protection.

If they do not, then the jihad resumes, dhimmi men of military age are to be put to death, and the women and children enslaved.

The true religion cannot justifiably be imposed by force, because it is not supposed to be.

A false religion cannot justifiably be imposed by force, because it is false, apart from any other reason that could be given.

On Israel's side the following holds:

Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.

Imagine for a moment if the Palestinians were all Christians instead of nearly all Muslims. This whole conflict would have been solved decades ago.

LF said...

"The kill rate is imaterial in my opinion"

Thankyou, you've expressed the Christian Zionist position better than I ever could. But I guess that leads us with nothing to talk about if you consider non-Israeli human lives to worthless.

bernadette said...

Nostrae Aetate doesn`t mention Islam, Francis. Nor does it mention Mohammed, nor any of the teachings of Islam. It meantions "muslims" only, and that we are to respect them and love them. The document deals far mroe with Judaism, which the Church recognzes as being part of the authentic path to salvation. It says that we are to affirm anything truthful that has been revealed toople by the grace of God's own gift. Nothing else.

Anyone whose sees NA as benevolent towards Islam simply hasn't read it.

roydosan said...

"Roll on Israel"?????

So you would justify the killing of over 700 people including 200 children as a justified response to the rockets fired by Hamas? Yesterday we heard reports of how Palestinian children were found starving next to the bodies of their decomposing mothers whilst Israeli soldiers (who were not under attack at the time) were only yards away. We also heard of how the Israeli Army refused to allow the Red Cross/Crescent to collect around twenty injured Palestinians so that they were forced to take them to hospital on a donkey cart. Not forgetting that the Israelis have killed twenty Palestinian ambulance drivers and also two UN drivers delivering essential supplies in the temporary 'ceasefire'allowed by the IDF. In the name of humanity how can you be so callous and disregarding of human life? I honestly don't know how you or anyone else that justifies this can sleep at night. Israel's actions have been completely indiscriminate and unjustified.

I am no supporter of Hamas but they have never called for the killing of all Jews, rather calling for a state that would be for Jews, Muslims and Christians - it is there in all of their official statements if you care to read that rather than what the Western propoganda machine says they believe in.

Whether Hamas is evil or not is now frankly completely irrelevant in any case. The 1.5 million people of Gaza do not deserve to be subjected to this brutal collective punishment which will only seek to recruit even more people into Hamas and so be completely counter-productive for Israel.

As for 'Jews to the gas chambers' it's more likely to be "Arabs to the gas chambers" - not my words but those of a Jewish settler painted on a Palestinian home in Hebron. If Israel continues with this utter contempt and disregard for Palestinian lives it's where they're headed.

amina said...

Michael Petek

instead of brining your propaganda against islam and muslims as being evil and islam is a false religion thanks to your misinformation and please do some serious research and stop your hateful comments which are nothing but hate

first of all , you are accusing hamas and wanting to make us beleive that israel is only defending it slef , for the sake of God dont you really fear the Allmighty?jews were living along side the muslims before the state of israel was declared and history never wrote a muslim genocide against them but since the emigrants came and gave themselves the right to say this is our land God gave it to us a new hollocaust started against the Muslims and chrestians as well perpetuated by the israeli state.
you really should read some jews point of view against the state of israel, dont think that all jews are pleased with this terrorist state, if hamas blow up them selves to kill israelis believe it or not because they dont have another choice to defend palestinians who are dying like insects because the so called palestinian Gov has spent years trying to negociate peace and they didnt do anything , it served only isreal mahmoud abbas is nothing more then a puppet of israeli state who is feeding you lies and hate againt muslims ( do you think they love chrestians my dear, your turn will come :-))

when your own child die besides you with rocket and you see your own mother and family dying that day come and tell us if you gonna go thru peace process.

now lets see about the dhimmi, did robert spencer the self appointed muslim scholar fed you with lies?
if muslims were evil as you like to say they really had to kill the christians and jews instead of keeping them alive and letting them practicing their own religion in freedom, the title dhimmi that sounds to you like an insult and actually it is used by those who loves propaganda to serve their own interest isnt what you really think my dear
jews and chrestians were obliged to pay taxes on a yearly basis to the state and not all of them mr Michael Petek only those ho were phisically able, orphans and widows , old and disabled people were not obliged to do so at the contrary the state had to look after them and in the same time Muslims payed zakat on a yearly basis as well and bear in mind the amount of zakat was higher than the amount of djizya , but christians and jews were having all protection and freedom of worship.
dont you pay taxes in your own county and hmmmmmmm you do it on a monthly basis or isnt that true?

now coming to this silly lies of yours that islam treated jews as apes and pigs come on Michael Petek would you be kind to show me where in the coran you read this???

this is another propaganda against islam here you go, actually it might be some muslims because of the injustice of israel , use this expression and this is not acceptable to misuse what God says but you know I think you would call me all sorts of name when you are angry wont you?

the coran states the story of SOME jews who broke the sabat on purpose so GOd punished them and transformed them to apes and pigs not all jews SOME who did mischieve, you know the same thing like jesus ( peace be upon him) called them generation of evil and adulterous will you deny that????

finally regarding the end time , bear in mind that those terrorists israelis that you seem love too much , those who are the generation of those who tried to kill jesus christ and killed the prophet as jesus peace be upon him said ( we muslims differ from your belive that jesus was crucified we believe he was risen to the allmighty because he was a holy prophet and he will come back by the end of time to show the truth and what was truly written in the Taura that he is a prophet and he is the MASSAIAH sent to the jews but you know they didnt accept him and they still dont but we muslims we DO and we are waiting for him and we will fight the jews alongside for all their mischieves on land.
and I specify not All jews are evil or will be killed since many are described in the holy Coran as pious

and for your information the coran calls them as well as the chrestians people of the book.

so now for the conflict as I am a muslim and a very practicing muslim i tell you we do not see any problem that the jews have their own states but not by exterminating the muslims and the chrestians NO
and since the state of israel keeps on its terrorism which they call self deffence there will be no peace
another thing my dear which will not happen of cource in case israel takes over palestine and erase all palestinians (this is what you want i think )
bear in your mind that all the churches that the muslims allowed when power was under their hand, israel will destroy them because for the jews you are nothing more than pagan, they dont respect neither jesus peace be upon him as we muslims do neither mary as the coran says she is the best and the most chaste woman in all the world , just go and read their holy book the talmud

may GOd guide you

salam which means peace

Fr Ray Blake said...

I think the Catholic Church's teaching about the treatment of non-combatants seems to have been flouted horrendously.
The killing of children, women, the elderly is a serious breach of all that is holy.

Michael Petek said...

LP, would you kindly not refer to me as a Christian Zionist!

I can't be pigeonholed in that way.

My position is that the Jews have the same right as any other people to aspire to political nationhood, and that Israel has the same right to exist as any other State.

Theology comes into it only to affirm that:

(1) the Jews will never cease to exist as an identifiable people before God;

(2) the Jews will never cease to aspire to live in their ancestral homeland;

(3) the sovereignty of Israel is vested by divine right in the Throne of David and in his legitimate Successor;

(4) "The glorious Messiah's coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by "all Israel" . . . The "full inclusion" of the Jews in the Messiah's salvation, in the wake of "the full number of the Gentiles", will enable the People of God to achieve "the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ", in which "God may be all in all"(CCC 674)

(This of course is a better deal for the Jews than killing as many of them as can't find a Gharqad tree to hide behind).

Hamas' campaign, being a religious war, violates goods of the supernatural order, not of the natural order only. That is why "the kill rate is immaterial", for there is by definition no disproportion with respect to civilian deaths which are not directly or indirectly intended.

Michael Petek said...

Father, you're clearly referring to jus in bello which is governed by international law which the Catholic Church defers to on the whole.

Violations of jus in bello generally include intent as an ingredient of crime.

But they do not affect jus ad bellum. In their campaign against Nazi Germany the Allies had jus ad bellum throughout, even when Soviet Air Force - in clear violation of jus in bello - fired on the evacuation train transporting my mother from East Prussia.

Volpius Leonius said...

"Thankyou, you've expressed the Christian Zionist position better than I ever could. But I guess that leads us with nothing to talk about if you consider non-Israeli human lives to worthless."

Your jumping to a lot of wrong assumptions about me with this comment, I was merely pointing out that number of deaths on each side is no indicator of who is right and who is wrong, it only indicates who is stronger.

Paul Knight said...

'Your jumping to a lot of wrong assumptions about me with this comment, I was merely pointing out that number of deaths on each side is no indicator of who is right and who is wrong, it only indicates who is stronger.'

Er, no. What kind of reasoning is that?

Paul Knight said...

It seems Christian Zionism lives in the Catholic Church too. It has the amazing ability to rationalize the most outragous abuses of human rights.

gemoftheocean said...

"So you would justify the killing of over 700 people including 200 children as a justified response to the rockets fired by Hamas? "


Roydosan: Darn skippy.

Let me know, as VP pointed out, if England gets hit by rockets you'll just sit their sucking your thumbs. Unless you have all turned into complete pansies, I think not.

Who brought all this on them? HAMAS. HAMAS started this. You Jew haters amaze me. Why don't you just don a swastika and get it over with?

I suggest if you have any influence with Hamas, since you seem to take their terrorist side is to urge them to STOP starting crap with Israel. It's real simple: don't attack Israel, and Israel won't attack you.

Yes, it's too bad 200 children got killed, but IT'S ON HAMAS'S HEAD. You don't get to lob rockets into another country just because you are hiding behind the diapers of Palestinian Children. You Hamas supporters are sick people.

gemoftheocean said...

" Paul Knight said...
'Your jumping to a lot of wrong assumptions about me with this comment, I was merely pointing out that number of deaths on each side is no indicator of who is right and who is wrong, it only indicates who is stronger.'

Er, no. What kind of reasoning is that?

"

Paul, I really don't know why this is so difficult for you. HAve you never seen the neighborhood brat [in this case Hamas] pick a fight with someone, only to be surprised he was the one who recieved the pounding. Now he is caterwauling to mommy [the UN and people who are sorry Hitler didn't finish the job, which sad to say many present day Europeans and others unashamedly assent to.] I'm with Israel. NEVER AGAIN. NEVER AGAIN.

Michael Petek said...

It depends, Paul, what you mean by Christian Zionism. If you mean something that includes dispensationalism and premillennialism, then I think the answer is no.

If you mean something that asserts that the Jews have a divine right to the Land of Israel, again no.

But if you mean something that involves affirming that God's covenant with Israel is permanent and unbreakable, then PopeJohn Paul II was a Christian Zionist.

I don't think it's un-Catholic to affirm that the bond of the Jews with the Land is an ineradicable divine fact.

It is even less un-Catholic to affirm that the divine right to the Land of Israel belongs to King David and his lawful Heirs and Successors.

If tou want, Paul, to find some outrageous violations of human rights, take a look at Islamic law.

Paul Knight said...

gemoftheocean,

Even if Israel began the campaign with the right intentions, the civilian death toll proves that the means have become unjust and grossly out of proportion to the threat posed.

roydosan said...

Karen, you're wrong.

To start off with where did you get the impression that I hate Jews - nowhere did I say that. Opposition to the violence perpetrated by the state of Israel against innocent civilians does not make me an anti-semite. There are plenty of Jews who oppose what Israel is doing.

Secondly, we in England know something about terrorism - we suffered plenty of bombings and other attacks by the IRA in the 70s-90s including many that resulted in the deaths of British civilians. How did we respond? We acted with restraint - the only legitimate response. We did not start bombing civilians in West Belfast in 'self defence'; that would have been illegitimate just as Israel's actions are now.

In N. Ireland children threw stones at British soldiers - they put up with it. In the Occupied Territories Palestinian children throw stones at Israeli soldiers - the soldiers shoot them. The Israeli's have a choice about how they behave. They can act like a civilised society. Herding Palestinian civilians into a house and then shelling it the following day is not the behaviour of a civilised society.

I'm no supporter of Hamas, I actually think their actions are counter-productive for the Palestinian cause, but I do believe in actually looking at what they say rather than what the Western media tells me. And as a matter of fact it was Israel that broke the ceasefire not Hamas as you would discover if you care to look.

The Palestinians are human beings with as much right to a decent life as you or I. Have you, Michael or anyone else that backs this have no pity in your heart? Look at what is happening:

Norwegian doctor comments on targeting of civilians in Gaza

Michael Petek said...

What surprises me, Paul, is that the casualties are so few in number compared with the intensity of Israeli firepower, and certainly compared with the carnage visited on German cities by Bomber Command.

The payload of a squadron of Lancasters was puny compared with that of just one modern combat jet.

Ottaviani said...

Michael

The old covenant was fulfilled by the coming of Jesus Christ. That is why the veil on the temple was torn down because it signified the beginning of the new covenant for Israel which is the Precious Blood of Jesus. It can no longer be called "unbreakable" in the sense that it is still salvific for them because it is not.

"The Jews therefore said: Will he kill himself, because he said: Whither I go, you cannot come? And he said to them: You are from beneath, I am from above. You are of this world, I am not of this world. Therefore I said to you, that you shall die in your sins. For if you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sin. They said therefore to him: Who art thou? Jesus said to them: The beginning, who also speak unto you."

John 8: 22-24

pelerin said...

How I agree with Paul Knight's last comment. The scenes being shown on our televisions have been heartbreaking to see.

I felt very proud this week when one of my sons told me that he took part in last week's demo and at this moment is taking part in today's demo in London. I never realised before his concern for justice in this way - I always knew he was very caring (he is a fire fighter) but had no idea he thought strongly enough about the plight of the Palestinians to demonstrate in this way. I am indeed a proud mum.

Michael Petek said...

Ottaviani, there was not one Old Covenant, but at least three before the coming of Christ.

The covenant of Abraham established Israel as a people and preserves her indestructible.

The covenant of David sets a dynasty of kings over Israel forever.

The covenant of Moses established the way of divine worship for Israel until the coming of Christ.

The first two are permanent, and the third has been superseded, because Jesus is a son of both Abraham and David, but not of Aaron.

These covenants are not salvific. Only the New Covenant is.

God continues to keep covenant with Israel and with the the House of David, because it is His nature to be faithful.

His faithfulness is expressed through the Sacred Humanity of Jesus as patriotism.

Jesus is a son of Israel. Pious reverence for one's native homeland and people is a virtue and is pre-eminently perfect in Christ and integral to His sinless human nature.

Ergo, Israel exists as a nation.

Pete said...

Michael,
"Ergo, Israel exists as a nation."

If you mean Israel as a nation state exists, that is a non sequitur.
The covenants exist, that is all, as they did in 2nd-19th century.

Michael Petek said...

I mean, Pete, that the faithfulness of God, and the patriotsm of Jesus Christ and His perfect exercise of the royal office of David, are the cause of which the indestructibility of the Jews as an identifiable people is the effect.

Their social and political organisation as a State is a matter of divine Providence, as it is with every nation.

epsilon said...

Thank you, Pelerin for sharing this information about your son.

The number of people who make vile and vicious comments on this site while claiming to be true Catholics, and conveniently forgetting Israel's part in building up Hamas in the first place, astounds me. There are no Jew-haters among those on this thread who support the Palestinian civilians (both Muslim and Christian) who are living in a prison / concentration camp created by the zionist state of Israel. It may surprise those of you who think Jew = zionist, that Jews who truly practise their religion have no love for zionism either:
see http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/

The British for their own political ends initiated the idea of having a “national home for Jewish people” in Palestine in 1917 with the Balfour Declaration. Of course, with typical British duplicitousness, they also added this was only on the understanding that "nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine”. They really kept their word on that one (just the same as they did in Northern Ireland)!

Joe of St. Thérèse said...

There's one solution to this mess...Jesus and His Church, plain and simple, that's the ONLY way TRUE peace will ever come to this region.

Michael Petek said...

Joe of St Therese, you're absolutely right! People must seek the peace of Christ in the Kingdom of Christ.

There are a lot of people in the Holy Land who could do with a change of religion.

We know from Romans 9-11 that the Jews will one day recognise the Messiah and believe as Christians do.

The question is, will the Muslims?

gemoftheocean said...

Pelerin, I'd be ashamed of any kin of mine demonstrating in favor of Hamas. Apparently your son has amnesia about who started this in the first place.

I suppose you'll be "proud" of him if Germany starts lobbing rockets into France, then hides behind women and children, and France retaliates and in the process German women and children get killed, along with the ******** that started it in the first place.

SURRRRRRe.

Which is why, btw, many Americans don't respect the French as regards foreign policy. We like your food, art, fashion, and many of the people are nice, but your politics are often to us, obscene for whom you support.

I'd be "proud" of your son if he demonstrated against Hamas, in the streets of Paris...but given the hatred for Israel amongst the French, that's about as likely as hell freezing over. that would be guts on his part.

To some of you others:
Rockets aimed by Hamas are not exactly equivalent to a ten year old throwing a stone. I thought even clueless people would know that.

If Israel wanted to turn that whole place into a parking lot, they could. Frankly, I think they've shown restraint by not doing so. As Michael pointed out, they gave up the Gaza some years ago. But no. Hamas still isn't "happy" because they have to get their "kill all the Jews" jollies statisfied.

I will never forget that Palestinian woman jumping up and down with glee on 9/11. And if by some serendipity, she was under a retaliatory strike, I'd say what payback was.

And Amina, way to go. I managed to read through your screed without my eyes bleeding, just to make sure you weren't one of the few Muslims [if any] who condemmed Hamas for bringing all that down on their heads and the heads of their women and children. Try loving your children more than hating Jews. You'll be able to go shopping and get to work easier. Just a thought. Oh, remind me again, who deliberatly used the Church of the Nativity as a toilet when they took hostages? Wasn't Israeli soliders. It was those "peaceful" Muslims.

Some of you people need to get a grip. If in living memory 6 million of you were herded into gas chambers specifically because you your religious background and suffered a holocaust, you expect them to go to the gas chambers again within living memory. Fortunately modern Jews are not as clueless to give up their arms or go down without a fight. The Jews didn't start this thing with the intention of killing innocent women and children - nor do they carry out attack with that in mind - otherwise the place WOULD be a parking lot. But please don't act like idiots caterwauling about "innocent women and children" when Hamas is hiding behind them lobbing rockets into Israel.

pelerin said...

Karen
My son was not demonstrating 'in favour of Hamas'. The demo was a 'Stop the War' protest and there were Jewish anti-war protesters there and Jewish speakers too. One placard was spotted 'Jews against the War on Gaza.'

All people there had braved the bitter cold to demonstrate their desire for peace - to hopefully convey to our members of parliament that something must be done. The situation cannot, must not, continue as it is.

Fr Ray Blake said...

Had enough of this.
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