Friday, March 01, 2013

SSPX Expansion in Liverpool


I have just been told that this June the SSPX are opening a new church in Liverpool just off Hope Street, in the shadow of the Anglican Cathedral in a redundant Christian Science conventicle. Archbishop Kelly had planned and then dropped the plan to open a Traditional parish in the city but despite church closures the SSPX to extend their influence into the heart of the city.

The failure to have a positive response from Bishop Fellay is surely on of the sadnesses our beloved Pope Emeritus takes with him into retirement. The reason seems to be SSPX infighting, not least from the English Province..

Reading the following which appears on their UK website it would appear that re-union is highly unlikely.
Should Traditional Catholics Attend the "Indult" Mass?
The Society of Saint Pius X could never profit by Rome's Indult, first because of the conditions attached to it, and, in particular, that of acknowledging the "doctrinal and juridical" value of the Novus Ordo Missae which is impossible and second, but more fundamentally, because such acceptance of the Indult would amount to saying that the Church had lawfully suppressed the traditional Latin Mass, which is certainly not the case.
But other priests have profited by it, some jumping at the chance to say the traditional Latin Mass, others only because requested by their Bishop, and the odd one or two who would always say the traditional Latin Mass anyway but have accepted to do so under the auspices of the Indult for "pastoral reasons".

Can We attend Their Masses? If we have to agree to the doctrinal and juridical value of the Novus Ordo, then NO, for we cannot do evil that good may ensue.
This condition may not be presented explicitly, but by implication, such as:
    The following appears on the UK SSPX website
  • by a priest who celebrates the Novus Ordo on other days of the week or at other times;
  • using Hosts consecrated at a Novus Ordo Missae;
  • or with communion in the hand;
  • new lectionaries, Mass facing the people, etc;
  • by a priest who was ordained in the New Rite;
  • by sermons that are modernist in inspiration (much to be feared if the celebrant habitually says the Novus Ordo Missae);
  • by offering only the revised forms of the other sacraments, eg. penance.
This brings up the whole context of the Indult Mass, it is:
  • a ploy to keep people away from the Society of Saint Pius X (for many Bishops allow only where there is a Society of Saint Pius X Mass Centre);
  • intended only for those who feel attached to the traditional Latin Mass but nevertheless accept the doctrinal rectitude and juridical right of the Novus Ordo Missae, Vatican II, and all official orientations corresponding to these.
Therefore, attending [the indult Mass] because of the Priest's words or fellow Mass-goers' pressure or because of the need to pander to the local Bishop just to have it inevitably pushes one to keep quiet on "diverse issues" and, distance oneself from those who do not keep quiet, ie. it pushes one to join the ranks of those who are destroying the Church.
This one cannot do.
The Indult Mass is therefore not for traditional Catholics*.
* One possible exception would be the case of those priests who happen to be saying the traditional Latin Mass under the Indult or with Roman "celebret" (permission given for the old Missal to priests applying to the Ecclesia Dei Commission, in the wake of the consecrations of Archbishop Lefebvre) but would be saying it anyway if these were denied them.Extract from "Most Asked Questions about the Society of Saint Pius X", printed by the Angelus Press, USA, 1997

51 comments:

francis said...

Well, that seems pretty clear.

If this is the definitive SSPX position, then there's no polite way of putting it – they're schismatic.

It's a tragedy that so much of the energy and vision of Pope Benedict for the unity of the Church was wasted upon these people. And an even greater tragedy if this materially contributed to the premature end of one of the truly great Pontificates of history.

lms rep said...

Thankless children and serpents' teeth spring to mind.

JARay said...

I'm with Francis on this one.

Angelo Cardinal Fratelli said...

Hey, I wish they would have never made alot of the changes to the Mass either but I'm not SSPX, no I'm , what do you call them... Oh yeah, a faithful Catholic. It is sad others choose to be disobedient.

If only they had read Ignatius of Antioch's letter about how schism is not permissible for ANY reason...

Deacon Augustine said...

First there was just the SSPX, then some of them schismed to form the SSPV, now Williamson's lot have schismed to form the SSPX of the Strict Observance....sounds like the proddy horror story all over again!

By the time faith and orthodoxy have been restored to the Church, they will have split into so many insignificant sects that none of them will have the wherewithal to negotiate a way back in anyway.

Hopefully the next Pope will get serious about the dogma Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus - its the only thing that's likely to get them to bend their proud Donatist necks.

John Fisher said...

The website they quote is out of date. There is no indult anymore. Yes I agree with them you cannot have an indult for something that was never abrogated.
Luckily we have FSSP priests but we don't like being given hosts consecrated in the Novus Ordo. Well it is still a valid Mass but obviously we/I want to hasten the day the Novus Ordo goes and real organic growth occurs again with the 1962 missal or earlier missal.
I think its good the SSPX has got a chapel in Liverpool. It cannot but improve the attitude of the new Archbishop towards tradition in the Archdiocese of Liverpool. Back in 1988 when I found in conscience though Catholics were being abused by authority in so many ways I decided to stay loyal to that abusive authority as an ideal by no longer taking communion in the SSPX chapels. Yet the excommunication is lifted now. Please do not be too dismissive and priggish about the SSPX. Much of what they say is polemical and intended to challenge. Many of you feel uncomfortable because you think the SSPX challenge your own decisions. Please do not take it that way. We all have to negotiate the minefield. Some like the SSPX simply refuse to enter it. Others like us are in our battleships fleeing our Modernist enemies while praying and trying to avoid the mines. In your charity please do not be harsh towards the SSPX! If it wasn't for the SSPX where would we be now! Please pray for a Pope who will end all of this.

Robert said...

But than again Father. When the church allows Masses like the one I emailed you from the LA Congress this year. Is it any wonder, they make statements like this?. Just think about it!. They are no more schismatic than those who organized the LA Congress, with their dainty women dancing all over the "worship space", looking like a Stonehenge gathering. What would St Francis, Benedict, and Dominic think of that display, if they were here today. Would they recognize that as a Holy Mass?.

Sixupman said...

What is not appreciated that the UK Province of SSPX is, de facto, a +Williamson enclave and not reflective of the total SSPX operation. [They already had a longstanding chapel in Liverpool, which became engulfed in local authority community improvements.] Many feel that +Fellay has been dilatory in not sorting-out the UK situation, where a priest with a Sedevacantist background, though reportedly not such, is District Superior and certainly a +Williamson acolyte.

I yearn for the days when SSPX first came to the North West of England, where SSPX and diocesan clergy met on good terms and the latter attending SSPX conferences. I know of at least one SSPX priest Celebrating Mass in local Diocesan Churches - including the crypt of Liverpool Cathedral.

Now my 'hobby horse': perhaps, Father, you will recall a document produced under the imprimatur of the E&W Bishops' Conference, probably devised by an Ecclestone (?) Square apparatchik, which stated that I could fulfil my Sunday/Holyday Obligations, if living not close to a Catholic Church, by attendance at, and participating in, services of the CofE, Methodist and Non-Conformist churches and chapels.

Excluding the present UK SSPX situation , I set my views upon SSPX, in the overall, against the above mentioned document - reflecting the 'mind and spirit' of our Hierarchy.

For the record, I attend the new Manchester Oratory whilst still financially supporting my exemplary parish priest.

Physiocrat said...

Unfortunately the influence of SSPX will not wane until priests show a greater willingness to learn and say the EF mass. I have asked several. Depressingly, the usual answers I get are "no call for it" and "no time to learn it". Now obviously there is a grain of truth in those replies, but there will be next to no demand for something if people do not know about it, and whilst priests these days are busy, how we all order our time is a matter of priorities.

I suspect the true reason is one given to me by a priest the other day - "it leads to sin". The priest explained to me that if Mass was said incorrectly, that was a sin, and the precision of the EF mass made it more likely.

I wonder if this does not reveal something more fundamental - that a priest saying the EF Mass is making a committment to something that he does not feel able to live up to, or is not living up to? In other words, the OF Mass is indeed Catholic Lite.

F Marsden said...

The SSPX had a chapel previously on Edge Lane, Liverpool, but they had to give it up, either for lack of numbers, or because it stood in the way of the new road out to the M62.

They have a chapel in Preston also. If a couple of my parishioners were anything to go by, the SSPX are clearly schismatic in the attitude they inculcate.

Ma Tucker said...

I would tend to agree that the leadership of "UK SSPX" is a Williamson/Morgan stray. There are very good SSPX priests who give excellent advice on how to apply the Gospels to your life at Mass and then there is the type who use the sermon to score childish victories against straw men, smirking all the while. The silliness is sad and unhelpful.



James said...

Sixupman, how can you attend the Manchester Oratory when there is no Manchester Oratory?
I discovered this to my cost when I turned up at Holy Name one Sunday recently at 3.50pm, nothing happening! Had to attend the OF at 7.00pm, where the Jesuits did make an effort and the preacher was excellent.

JARay said...

Well!
This is indeed a turn-up for the books.
John Fisher has revealed his SSPX attachment! I am pleased on that account. I understood that he hated the Church.
I am aware that some of the SSPX think that a Novus Ordo Mass is "Catholic Lite".
I'm not surprised that there is a breakaway +williamson clique.
As for some declaration that one could attend tha local heretic ecclesial community if unable to attend Holy Mass, this is one of the tenets of the former Bishop of Toowoomba who was removed from Office because of his extremely lax views and statements. I hasten to add, I must say, that that was not all that he did to undermine Catholicism in Toowoomba. Holy Mother Church is well rid of ex-Bishop Morris.
We had a TV programme here (in Australia) which purported to look at the legacy of Emeritus Pope Benedict XVI. The pannelists included Ms. Pepinster from The Tablet, Bobby Mickens from The Tablet, the ABC Religion Producer ( a non-Catholic ) Geraldine Doogue who comes from a Catholic family but has not darkened the door of a Catholic Church in years, Fr. Frank Brennan SJ who teaches Law at an Australian University and is well known for his extremely strange views on Catholicism. We did have one Catholic voice in the new Archbishop of Brisbane who spoke up and defended the Church very well. And we also had ex-Bishop Morris of Toowoomba.
I leave you the guess what sort of a resume of the Papacy of Benedict XVI it was!

Fr Ray Blake said...

Dear Deacon TF,
Was that meant to contribute to the discussion or was that just a sneer?

Ben said...

James, towards the end of last year the Manchester Oratory community relocated to St Chad's, not far from Victoria Station.

Joseph Shaw said...

John Fisher above is right, this SSPX web page doesn't seem to have caught up with Summorum Pontificum. In fact, it doesn't seem to have caught up with Ecclesia Dei Adflicta, which didn't include the stuff about accepting the Novus Ordo, which they objected to so much, in Quattuor Abhinc Annos in 1984 (see here).

They have long memories...

Joseph Shaw said...

James, the Manchester Oratory is to be found at Cheetham Hill (they moved), see their website http://www.manchesteroratory.org/

Sixupman said...

James:

Obviously you have not kept up with the saga.

Go to Simon Henry's Blog, Offerimus Tibi Domine, 2nd. September 2012 and read the change to St. Chad's, Cheetham Hill Road, nr. Manchester Victoria Station and tram stop. More importantly read the Comments on the situation.

You will have to scroll throug "older posts".

momangelica said...

I do not think anything is clear - wish it was. BUT
Our Lord said " By it's Fruit you will know them"
I won't bore you with what you already know about the catastrophic falling away of our young and the absence of Catholic Doctrine due to the abject material and the sort of teachers teaching in "Catholic" schools. I meet up with Catholics who could just as well be Anglicans as they embrace all their liberals stances. As a mum of six children and six grandchildren (by July, God willing them safe deliveries) I have had to battle in schools to kick out Diwali (Primary age 6yrs) and other Heresies taught in the Secondary stage. Grabed the children out of sex ed. (which is now even more revolting) Heard dissident homilies, seen our Canon bowing at the Unity Week Homosexual Communities "consecration" and going up to receive host from a man who was really a woman, a few weeks ago.
I am in no doubt that the N.O. is the Schismatic Church and that SSPX are the only ones genuinely holding it together.
My convert husband is a very intelligent man, and hated the thought of Latin spoken in a Mass but when protestant activities bludgeoned their way into Good Friday service he was off. You see, he recognized it for what it had become. He keeps saying after a SSPX Mass. " How could they have abandoned this for the N.O."
It was the New Order that came with the four items previously declared Anathema and NEVER to be accepted. These are the only things SSPX do not tarnish themselves with. How can they It's the real Body of Christ His Holy true Church. And you will see good fruit.

Independent said...

Students of the Episcopi Vagantes obviously have an addition to those they already study.

Supertradmum said...

I hope not off subject, but there seems to be confusion. If one cannot get to a regular Sunday NO or EF, can one go regularly to the SSPX? I have seen different answers to this.

momangelica said...

Supertrade Mum.
The, ahem! Excommunication, was placed on dear saintly Lefebvre and not upon those who attended the Masses. The excommunication has now been lifted.
Reading comments about infighting, it seems to me that there is infighting in all church areas, so like a family. These are strange days, truth turned on it's head, everyone feeling a bit jumpy and out of sorts so it will lead to bickering, not the end of the world - so human. The truth to keep in sight is adhering to doctrine and 10 commandments. No Pope at the moment but all that has been laid down is as it is/was and we adhere to those strong doctrines that belong to the Church not to man.

Supertradmum said...

momangelica, thanks for the comment, but that does not answer my question.

Jessica Rose. said...

James et al . Manchester Oratory certainly is up and running in Manchester . I attended the Solemn Mass last Sunday - my first one . It was peaceful , invigorating and quite emotional at the same time . I will be there this Sunday , and will be taking my mother-in-law to the Benediction and Holy Hour this Saturday evening - she can't wait . The new Oratory needs and deserves our support .

Newry Liam said...

Why give these heretics coverage Father?

Jacobi said...

SSPX are schismatic, but their Mass is a valid.

As such they are in the same position, and require the same Charity from us, as the schismatic Orthodox churches who are now increasingly seen as the proper target of Catholic ecumenism, and not the ever more heretical Protestant and Secularised ecclesial bodies that some attention is still directed to.

Don’t get me wrong about these latter, we should by all means be nice to them and co-operate still in the ever decreasing areas of shared belief.

But there is a greater danger for the Church. Benedict XVI has been criticised by some of us, (including me?) in what I will call Catholic Continuity, for not doing enough to ensure liturgical restoration. Personally I think that is because he was trying to avoid fracture on the liberal/Modernist side of the Church. This would be of course much greater than the SSPX sector, and would not be reconcilable.

History has not come to an end, and we should be casting our minds back some 550 years for analogies. The next Pope has a task on his hands. The other lesson of history to keep in mind, however, is that whatever storms assail the Barque of Peter, it will, eventually, right itself and sail on.

Sixupman said...

Supertradmum:

Hear Mass Celebrated by clergy you can trust!

Robert said...

http://the-hermeneutic-of-continuity.blogspot.com/2013/03/novena-for-election-of-sovereign-pontiff.html

http://www.dici.org/en/news/novena-for-the-election-of-the-sovereign-pontiff-march-2013-1st-to-9th/

Interesting!. Will the SSPX in the UK abide by this. A Novena by "Schismatics"

I'll be saying it!. Does the LA Religious Education Congress crowds also have a Novena?. Do they even know what a Novena is?. Or will they be having a "Revival for the new Pope"?.

David Joyce said...

Many of the comments here towards the SSPX are really far off the mark.

They are neither "heretics" nor "schismatic" - the Holy See says no such things. It is now a matter of canonical regularisation. Their bishops have always been auxiliary bishops, never assuming any jurisdiction for themselves.

If they err, it is usually on the side of caution, perhaps too much so, especially here in the UK. As someone who has organised Masses in the diocese of Portsmouth in the past, I am not unaware of the problems with the approved Latin Masses (formally called "Indult" Masses), whether liberal sermons, atrocious surroundings, inconvenient Mass times, disregarded rubrics, Holy Communion distributed in the hand, an unwelcoming atmosphere, and so on. The SSPX may have its faults, but it does offer the "whole package" - priests trained in Tradition, all the traditional sacraments available, not just Holy Mass, and a sense of stability that diocesan Latin Masses often lack.

Regarding the collapse of an agreement between the SSPX and Rome, it appears to me that an agreement was about to be signed last June, but the CDF reverted the "Doctrinal Preamble" back to its original state as drafted at the start of the process. Is Bishop Fellay really meant to trust this duplicity? Please refer to Bishop Fellay's sermon last November for his side of the story: http://www.dici.org/en/documents/sermon-of-bishop-bernard-fellay/

Peter said...

Father
They do not cover what to do if there is no SSPX Mass to be heard. It seems that they think it better to miss Mass completely rather than attend the best available. Or have I misunderstood?
They also seem to rule out any priest ordained in the New Rite. So if a priest were to attempt to join would they deem his earlier ordination invalid?
Letting all doctrinal issues to one side I am not sure how practical this advice is for SSPX supporters or potential supporters.
Let us hope that they find a better way to return to full unity with Rome.

Fr Ray Blake said...

Peter,
That is my concern, they seem to be suggesting there are no valid sacraments, except through the SSPX.
That is plainly schismatic and heretical.

David Joyce said...

Father,

I don't think this is correct:

"That is my concern, they seem to be suggesting there are no valid sacraments, except through the SSPX.
That is plainly schismatic and heretical."


given that almost all of the reasons against attending the (as it is called in the piece) "Indult" Mass are entirely practical (i.e. the lectionaries, Communion in the hand, modernist sermons, etc.). Moreover, the SSPX have never denied the validity of the new sacraments. However, they do recognise the damage the new sacraments have brought to the Church.

Their point about "a priest who was ordained in the New Rite" stems mainly from their concern about the intention of the Bishop at the time of ordination, and whether he "did as the Church does". The same point goes for "using Hosts consecrated at a Novus Ordo Missae", where there is a legitimate doubt over the manner in which the hosts were consecrated. There is so much chaos in the Church, even now, that the doubt is a real one. You mustn't take this too far, of course, as otherwise you start to doubt the existence of the hierarchy, but this isn't something the SSPX does.

If they do accept a priest into their ranks from the diocese whose ordination is in doubt, then they could be ordained by the SSPX but it would always be conferred conditionally, not otherwise. This again indicates it is not a matter of principle, but one of practical concern.

I really don't know why we are getting excited about this "advice" - it clearly pertains to the original 1984 Indult (with a slight note about Ecclesia Dei). The faithful who attend their chapels can take it or leave it.

The American site contains the following, which perhaps provides a wider perspective on where they are coming from:

Can a traditional Catholic go to confession to a Novus Ordo priest?

It would certainly be valid to go to confession to a priest who still celebrates the Novus Ordo Mass, provided that the penitent were assured of the doctrinal orthodoxy of the priest, his intention of doing what the Church does, and his use of the correct formula of absolution. It would furthermore be permissible in a state of necessity, such as when a person is dying and no traditional priest can be found.

Sixupman said...

Father,

I rather think the document, which you have put up, originated in America when +Williamson was Winnona (?) and held sway over the Continent and it is, in any event, out of date. You appreciate, of course, that within the American psyche is a propensity to sectarianism, therefore +Williamson, something of an orator, would be in his element. America has now a well balanced Superior in Fr. Rostand - whom some see him as a traitor.

I am sure you will also agree that our own seminaries have not all produced the best of fruit.

When taxed regarding my view of the NOM, my initial response is, "which NOM". That which you Celebrate, that of Tradionally minded clergy, or that of Msgr.Loftus and his ilk, or that of two clergy, of my own personal knowledge, who used loose-leaf books instead of missals and who sought that all should be on the altar with the "Celebrant" - in a laity co-consecration. Or perhaps that widespread through France and elsewhere, where the select of the parish conduct the "Mass" and the cleric sits on the side, awaiting to be called upon to confect "The Sacrament". And all stops in between. Take your pick!

Your referred to a proposed Traditional parish in Liverpool, that was thwarted by the priests' trade union within the diocesan curia and the bishop had to renege upon the, albeit tentative, deal. That would have been a challenge to SSPX. That is not to say that Liverpool is devoid of Traditionally minded and TLM Celebrants.

Similarly in Lancaster Diocese, a proposal to save an iconic church, with it being taken over by a Traditional order, was rejected by the, then, bishop on the basis it would be financially detrimental to other parishes. ????

pablothemexican said...

Archbishop Marcel Lefenvre simply provided a continuum of the Faith as Csrdinals, Bishops, and Priests abandoned Our Lord at the Second Vatican Council.

Padre, go to Compline and or the Holy Ros ary with those trads.

You will be surprised.

Bishop Fellay has lost control, but the rank and file are still Catholic.

.

Peter said...

Thank you Father
As the advice is still on the SSPX website it may well reflect current thinking despite its age. It is not suggestive of a desire for unity or of hope for improvement in the church. Let us hope that Sixupman is right that it is out of date and will be replaced shortly.

Red Maria said...

Since we, or at least SSPX are talking about the juridical value of this that and the other and since MomAngelica quoted no less an authority than Jesus Christ's dictum that by their fruits shall we know them, permit me to draw attention to the fact that one of SSPX's, er, fruits, included the sheltering of Paul Touvier in its Nice Priory.
Paul Touvier, a former Vichy official was wanted by the French government for war crimes which included the execution of seven people at Rillieux la Pape. He managed to evade justice for years thanks to what SSPX called "an act of charity to a homeless man" though such acts of SSPX charity strangely seem not to be extended to homeless North African immigrants.
Perhaps I should have mentioned that the seven people murdered on Touvier's orders were Jews, who as far as "bishop" Fellay is concerned are "enemies of the Church" - his words.
What's a mere bagatelle like the lives of seven Jews compared to posturing over indult Masses? It can't be a matter to worked up about, why, no one on this thread has yet mentioned them!

Sixupman said...

Before contributors, here, accept Red Maria's own contribution at face-value, I suggest they refresh their memories by checking on "Wickipedia". The broader exposition is enlightening, particularly as to the intervening period between the end of the War and Touvier's sanctuary in Nice.

This angst which pervades consideration of matters SSPX is worthy of a PhD thesis. I am convinced it arises from a deep seated guilt with the Episcopacy and others, that perhaps SSPX are right and they are wrong.

If there was 'something on' Msgr. Lefbvre,the Vatican mafia would have disclosed it years ago. Yet all we have is Jean Marie le Pen and now Touvier.

I am also reminded of the howls of outrage at the publication of a picture of clerics at at the head of a Nazi march in Germany - it was said they were Catholics. In fact they were Lutherans and Pastor Bonhoffer died for his anti-Nazism. Never accept allegations at initial offering. Likewise "Red Maria's" assertions.

momangelica said...

Robert. re. Novena.
Yes. We had leaflets on the table in the Church porch and we were asked to take part in the Novena.
That was Friday.1st Feb. We are always reminded about the devotion of the first Fridays, unlike my local Deanery where some 1st Fridays none of the churches are open for Mass. Certainly never a mention of First Fridays. So much lost with Vat.2 We are encouraged with all devotions and prayers and Catechism lessons after Mass. So rich.Mass at 10am we get home 1pm even then it is hard to pull ourselves away, so many interesting, lovely people and conversations.

veneremurcernui said...

Supertradmum, I've been troubled over your question for some time, and as far as I can tell, there is no clear answer. Some authorities, even cardinals (Canizarez Llovera comes to mind) have, I believe, indicated it is valid to satisfy one's Sunday Mass requirement at an SSPX chapel, but many others say no. The CDF I believe did issue a statement in regard to a formal question along these lines that said in essence, no, the Sunday obligation is not validly satisfied by assisting at SSPX, but there was nebulous language involved that left many people wondering just quite what was said, whether the "no" was really clear or not, or what the "penalty" would be for doing so. I think that statement from CDF was on Rorate some time back.

In a nutshell, it's still not clear.

Sixupman said...

"In a nutshell", taking into account the current state of play in Mother Church - the argument is puerile!

Red Maria said...

I'm disinclined to argue with somebody who can't even spell "wikipedia" correctly.

I note again that not a single person on this thread mentioned SSPX's anti-Semitism, so extreme a bigotry that it included the sheltering of a man wanted for war crimes. Not a single person.

Their silence speaks volumes.

If any of the other people on this comments thread in the future have the nerve to hold forth about Pro Life let their gaspings invite gales of giggles.

Sixupman said...

Red Maria:

How do you know I am not dyslexic?

Surely it is not the spelling, but the content of the [sorry unable to spell it].

BTW I do not attend SSPX Masses.

I wish I wus educated like yous.

Rod George said...

sspx have been in Liverpool for a good number of years. The new church is replacing one which was accquired for a road widening scheme( Edge Lane/M62).I think credit is due to the sspx for organising two worldwide rosary crusades which were presented to Pope Benedict.This resulted in the lifting of the suspensions of the four bishops and the publication of S.P. A third rosary petition calling for the concecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary is yet to be answered.Are the sspx schismatic ? NO. Is their position irregular? Yes.

Hedgehog said...

I would like to testify to the most wonderful sermon I ever heard (which was about the Paraclete) recently, at an SSPX Mass. I NEEDED to hear something so important and never had from the Novus Ordo people. I am a fairly new attendee of the Old Mass and never grew up with it. I am not picking quarrels with ANYONE. I have never come across arrogance from any of the SSPX priests and I cherish what I hear at their masses, reflecting on them throughout the month. It is a joy to be there, and a gift (our priest travels miles and miles for our small congregation). I wish I were a theologian to explain how it feels- as if we are getting a sense of God-in-Eternity instead of God-in-the-present only. There is a much richer,deeper (scarier) mental space. I thank the SSPX for putting up with so much hate when they are just giving us the best the Church inherited. And no, it probably IS a fully modern response to the crisis, ironically..as someone who has been in the world of deconstruction and postmodernism, I feel it is able to challenge that more than the Novus Ordo.

Physiocrat said...

SSPX and the Tridentine Mass would have quietly faded away if the Novus Ordo Mass had continued to be said all the way through in Latin was was widespread until the late 1970s. The Bishops have themselves to blame by not responding to complaints about the widespread switch to the vernacular through the early 1980s, which in addition to bringing about renewed in interest in the Tridentine Mass, also lost about 2/3rds of the Catholic church in England and Wales.

The situation now seems to be that the only growth point in the Catholic church is where the EF form is regularly celebrated, and this is drawing in a small but steady stream of young people. The bishops need to wake up and accept this if they want to evangelise. The OF and the vernacular liturgy is going to take the Catholic church into oblivion within a generation.

Sixupman said...

I can attest that Liverpool Diocesan clergy used to attend SSPX conferences, in the days of Fr. Black, and had good relations with them. However, the diocese is now in the hands of a clergy mafia, organised against 'Tradition'. Beware any younger priest with such tendencies.

But back to the assertion, with a question: why was the "New Mass" promulgated? I have no idea, but I do know that its has created an ethos which is counter to the base belief in Consubstantiation. Latin, per se, or vernacular, is not the issue, that which is relates to the underlying meaning of the New Mass.

We were told that the vernacular was the reason, that we thickos did not comprehend what was taking place. In that case why not just switch to the left hand page of our missals?

No, the reason for the promulgation of the New Mass was to destroy the Old Mass and to achieve that end, the missals had to be rendered redundant at stroke - the New Lectionary!

The Old Mass had a validity if only the Celebrant were present, let alone those early morning attendees on their way to work. Such were the absolute equal as even a Pontifical High Mass. To-day, the presence of the laity appears to be a key requirement. In the old days, one was met with queues outside the porches between one Mass and that following - four Masses on a Sunday morning, but no Communion at 11:00 Mass. Inside, quiet before and after Mass - now, quite often bedlam.

I consider, quite often, the New Mass to be something of a Potemkin Village of a Mass, little behind it. Such is accentuated when the New Mass is Celebrated in Latin - which masks the underlying Protestant elements thereof.

Clearly, there are those who make the very best of a bad job. But there are also others who revel in a travesty of the term Mass.

But, of course, no to forget we were emphatically informed that the Old Mass had been abrogated - which was an untruth. So an untruth is that upon which the New Mass was based. Need one say more?

Physiocrat said...

@Sixupman,

Latin is the issue too because with Latin gone, most of the music is gone too. Either we have bad adapatations of the original music to the vernacular, which works badly in English though slightly better in some other languages, or hymns of Protestant origin are sung instead. It may or may not be an accident or oversight that the new Swedish Catholic hymn book, running to over 1300 pages and costing £30 a copy, has an introduction by the Bishop of Stockholm but no Imprimatur or Nihil Obstat.

The loss of the music matters because it makes a strong impression on children who may then be, and often are, drawn back to those sounds in later life - it creates a strong and lifelong link to the faith.

In addition to the issues around the Mass, the associated loss of the church's musical heritage is a catastrophe in its own right.

Unknown said...

I wish for the social Reign of Our Lord, Jesus Christ. It is through the work of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church that Christ will reign and it is with the intercession of the Mother of God that Catholic Doctrine will once more be taught and preached. The SSPX and the other traditional Clergy seek to transmit the Faith that comes to us from the Apostles. They seek to do this without compromise or the mealey-mouthedness of neo-Moderrnist Clergy of which we have far, far too many. This time of trial for the Church will be seen as a time of purging. The doctrinal infidelity of the clergy is our punishment for trusting them far too much. The Bishops betrayed us at Vatican II, Paul VI pandered to the protestants and the Modernists in betraying us in his promulgation of the Novus Ordo, itself formed by Annibal Bugnini (modernist and freemason) and his commission of protestant ministers who 'finished Luther's work'. The floor of Hell is paved now with the heads of rotten and traitorous Bishops but among those skulls you will not find that of Cardinal Ottaviani or Archbishop Lefebvre. My question is this: how many bishops and priests can, today, in good conscience take the Anti-Modernist Oath, sworn by the older generation who now rule and whose manifest failures can be seen in the disfigured and injured face of what these days passes for the Catholic Church? Better an advance of Catholic Doctrine with the SSPX than the neo-Protestantism of all too many pseudo-Catholic presbyters

sarto2010 said...

"Fr Ray Blake said...
Peter,
That is my concern, they seem to be suggesting there are no valid sacraments, except through the SSPX.
That is plainly schismatic and heretical."

Fair enough, but in my parish, the largest parish in the Archdiocese of St Andrew's & Edinburgh, the [former] archbishop has not conferred the sacrament of Confirmation in about 10 years.
This is left to the parish priests and curates.

Again, fair enough ... perhaps ...
BUT, last year one of the curates turned all the children standing in a line towards the congregation and conferred the oil of chrism turned sort of "side-on" to the child, to applause from the congregation.

Fair enough ... perhaps ... but I simply refuse to accept it and there is no point of appeal if one's archbishop is KP O'Brien and the parish priest is one of his Vicars General!

Compare this debacle to the beauty and serenity of an SSPX Mass of Confirmation and one is left depressed.

Sixupman said...

But SSPX clergy are without 'Faculties' - Fr. Zuhldorf's repeated retort. It makes one weep!

frankie2 said...

The Mass of All Time is precisely that. It has been replaced by a protetantised version which aims to make us focus on this world and not the next. The uniy of faith and government in the One, Holy Catholic Church has been blown apart - the Pope no longer commands, the bishops conferences innovate and allow anything, the priests likewise.

Instead of recognising the unique divine mission of the Catholic Church, it is offered as another flavour of the universal humanism underpinning all religions. From confusion about doctrine comes confusion about morals, and hence the moral degradation that assails society. With the Church weakened, the evil men who push their own un-natural agenda, such as gay marriage, can run rampant. And they have!

What to do? Find authentic Tradition and the true Mass wherever you can, and heed the message from Our Lady at Fatima - prayer and penance.