tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post1711475067842483002..comments2023-12-16T16:17:43.886+00:00Comments on Fr Ray Blake's Blog: The Other VictimsFr Ray Blakehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comBlogger87125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-32476297502362105022011-07-05T08:08:31.734+01:002011-07-05T08:08:31.734+01:00Our parish priest is going through a false accusat...Our parish priest is going through a false accusation episode right now. Even though the diocesan investigation and police investigation showed the case to be unsubstantiated, the accuser has filed a civil law suit, which really drags out the process by months and months. One thing that our priest, who has been removed (we hope only temporarily), says helps him is knowing that the parish has stood as a body in support, including raising money to help with his civil defense funds. Knowing that we believe him and want him back seems to be emotionally helpful to him. Thank God for social media; we can keep in touch with him. Many, many of us (including all the acolytes) have written letters of support to the bishop and provided copies to our priest's legal team. We don't know how it will turn out, but the press, at first, tried, unsuccessfully, to do a really bad number on Father's reputation. Fortunately, as time has gone on, the press has become bored, and, unable to come up with any other claims of abuse except from this one criminal (literally -- he made the claim not long after being released from prison for theft -- seems like he is looking to commit another kind of theft), the press does not mention it any more. Our parish is very concerned that our bishop is not caring for his flock, and this year only five people donated to the bishop's appeal in protest. We have also met with representatives from the diocese and sent word to the bishop that we expect him to support his priests better. At least, he has given Father a continuing salary and safe, local place to live. I worry about all priests, especially the ones who are really caring. That caring can get them in trouble in today's crazy, upside-down world. Thanks for sharing your experiences. Clearly, you are not alone. Clearly, our priest is not alone.Elizabeth Mahlouhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00334700057953625321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-50453916957783639622011-07-04T12:45:53.364+01:002011-07-04T12:45:53.364+01:00How unfortunate that such a valuable and challengi...How unfortunate that such a valuable and challenging debate has ended on such a sour note.<br />Theist or Atheist why shoot the messenger? <br />The message is sound. Only by following procedures can we progress in dealing with this matter. <br />I personally thank all the commenters for their opinions and and Father Ray for his inclusion of these.<br />I think we have all learned from this.Annenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-44529345481621324582011-07-02T13:56:41.664+01:002011-07-02T13:56:41.664+01:00It should appear by now that it is pointless tryin...It should appear by now that it is pointless trying to have a sensible debate with a psychopathic professional Atheist who could talk the hind leg off a Donkeynickbrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18412418782531527758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-67057451290483171172011-07-02T11:34:01.569+01:002011-07-02T11:34:01.569+01:00Anita Moore
There are gifts of discernment, both ...Anita Moore<br /><br /><i>There are gifts of discernment, both natural and supernatural, however much those mired in materialism may deny it</i><br /><br />It is rather a pity then that those gifts have not been used to protect Catholic children from their own priests. If ever there was a case for the effective use if such discernment, this would appear to be it. And then the abuse scandal would never have happened.Jonathan Westhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00527063732905729010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-71743020870525037152011-07-02T08:42:55.086+01:002011-07-02T08:42:55.086+01:00A few statistics:
http://youtu.be/SaGj1rJdPKo
Th...A few statistics:<br /><br />http://youtu.be/SaGj1rJdPKo<br /><br />The matter under discussion has surely contributed to this.<br /><br />I have advised travelling colleagues to check on the display of safeguarding guidelines whenever they visit a new parish and check websites.Terrynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-51924576926926138902011-07-01T17:53:24.037+01:002011-07-01T17:53:24.037+01:00Richard Reeves
Of course it takes more than ticki...Richard Reeves<br /><br />Of course it takes more than ticking boxes. Humans and their memories are of course fallible, so if ticking a few boxes helps ensure that records are kept of necessary actions, and the need to do the box ticking helps ensure that the necessary actions actually occur, then I'm all in favour of having boxes to tick.<br /><br />But ticking the boxes is an essentially useless exercise if it isn't allied to a determination to ensure that child abuse can't happen in your parish, or at least that if it does, it is detected quickly and ended immediately.<br /><br />The box ticking is a <i>tool</i>, it mustn't be an end in itself. As far as I can tell, When Fr Ray talks of the box ticking, it seems to me he is seeing it as having become detached from its primary purpose, the prevention of child abuse. If so, then I am entirely in agreement with him, and on the need for pastoral care for all those involved in an incident or allegation, however the investigation turns out. More generally I'm also all in favour of better pastoral care for priests on the receiving end of abusive comments such as he described in the article.<br /><br />It would be wrong to compare the suffering of priests on the receiving end of such remarks with the suffering of those children who have been abused, the two things are so different that any comparison between them would be odious. But equally, it would be wrong to say that the honest priests are not suffering at all though the ordeal of ridding the church of abuse.<br /><br />I genuinely hope that the ordeal comes to an end soon.Jonathan Westhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00527063732905729010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-17007755290972285222011-07-01T17:25:16.479+01:002011-07-01T17:25:16.479+01:00Blimey, you remind me of the devil in the garden o...<i>Blimey, you remind me of the devil in the garden of eden with those words. He still tries to taunt people's minds, suggesting thoughts such as those, are occuring in other people's minds.</i><br /><br />Yes.<br /><br />By the way, I take issue with the notion, touted here as dogma, that it is impossible to detect a pervert. This is just not true. It may not always be possible accurately to discern a person's particular brand of perversion, but it is not impossible to detect the presence of something evil. There are gifts of discernment, both natural and supernatural, however much those mired in materialism may deny it; and there are also acquired abilities, gained through experience. Many things may hinder our ability to discern evil, starting with our fallen nature and including other factors, such as inordinate regard for a particular person; but that does not mean that it is impossible to spot a pervert.Anita Moorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11305092097247290243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-37500423287830798892011-07-01T16:33:28.874+01:002011-07-01T16:33:28.874+01:00"Your conspicuous support for an effective sa..."Your conspicuous support for an effective safeguarding policy that applies to everybody in the parish who works with children, including yourself, is the best reassurance you can give. It shows your commitment to child protection, it indicates that you have nothing to hide, and if in the unlikely event you did have something to hide, it would be more likely to be found out".<br /><br />Just like the conspicuos support given by the Canadian Bishop, Raymond Lahey. Didn't he sit on many panels that worked in this area. Fr Ray is so correct in suggesting that it takes much more than the tick the boxes policies of Mr West.Richard Reevesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-49643332914827495742011-07-01T12:38:43.032+01:002011-07-01T12:38:43.032+01:00Jonathan said:
"With all the scandals that h...Jonathan said:<br /><br />"With all the scandals that have occurred, it is only natural for some of your parishioners to have wondered at the back of their minds whether you yourself might turn out to be an abuser, and how they would be able to tell. They mostly wouldn't have felt able to talk to you about it, but the thought will have been niggling at the back of their minds."<br /><br />Blimey, you remind me of the devil in the garden of eden with those words. He still tries to taunt people's minds, suggesting thoughts such as those, are occuring in other people's minds. In truth, we have no idea what other people think, no control over what people think and actually it is none of our God given business what goes on in other people's heads (they're private). Therefore Father Ray has no cause whatsoever to worry about this and should not let your comment rent any space in his head either! Evict it Father, before it has time to settle!mehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06962374096401238994noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-90178013977446254312011-07-01T11:26:38.561+01:002011-07-01T11:26:38.561+01:00Deeply Concerned of Dulwich
You are welcome to pr...Deeply Concerned of Dulwich<br /><br />You are welcome to presume whatever you like about me.Jonathan Westhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00527063732905729010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-2851834448243736912011-07-01T08:03:15.633+01:002011-07-01T08:03:15.633+01:00Fr Ray,
Thank you.
I very much hope that you put...Fr Ray,<br /><br />Thank you.<br /><br />I very much hope that you put up more than a simple link to the diocesan policy.<br /><br />Amending the website will reassure your parishioners as to the seriousness with which you treat safeguarding.<br /><br />With all the scandals that have occurred, it is only natural for some of your parishioners to have wondered at the back of their minds whether you yourself might turn out to be an abuser, and how they would be able to tell. They mostly wouldn't have felt able to talk to you about it, but the thought will have been niggling at the back of their minds. It is unfair on you that they might think this, but inevitable given the number of cases of abuse that have happened and the way in they have been covered up by the church in the past.<br /><br />Your conspicuous support for an effective safeguarding policy that applies to everybody in the parish who works with children, including yourself, is the best reassurance you can give. It shows your commitment to child protection, it indicates that you have nothing to hide, and if in the unlikely event you did have something to hide, it would be more likely to be found out.Jonathan Westhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00527063732905729010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-11059980321995154052011-07-01T07:53:16.337+01:002011-07-01T07:53:16.337+01:00Richard Reeves
I think you are giving the Woolmin...Richard Reeves<br /><br />I think you are giving the Woolmington vs DPP case a wider applicability than it really has. The "golden thread" speech, for all that it was very rhetorically made, has an applicability solely to to with a criminal trial, that it is for the prosecution to prove a person's guilt beyond reasonable doubt, and that unless and until that is done, the person charged shall be presumed innocent by the jury.<br /><br />That doesn't require that the person also be presumed innocent for instance by the police, otherwise no police investigations would ever happen.<br /><br />And in the case of the priest I mentioned, it doesn't require that the church authorities presume him innocent of a sexual assault which has been admitted, but not prosecuted because of a legal technicality. So what, in your opinion, should the church authorities do?Jonathan Westhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00527063732905729010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-6581066719316511752011-07-01T02:01:27.622+01:002011-07-01T02:01:27.622+01:00Jonathan West,
I was interested to read your ques...Jonathan West,<br /><br />I was interested to read your questions to Fr Ray. Since I see no indication to this effect on either your profile or your blogs, perhaps you could confirm the following for me:<br /><br />1. That you have paid your income tax to date, with no outstanding payments?<br />2. That your car - if you have one - is currently insured for road use, with a disc properly displayed where it can be seen by officers of the law?<br />3. That your use of the internet is not in contravention of any court orders which may currently stand against you?<br /><br />You are, of course, innocent until proven guilty. I presume you will be able to respond in the affirmative to each of these points, and look forward to your doing so.<br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />Deeply Concerned of Dulwichdcodnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-52224143787593338062011-06-30T08:58:24.017+01:002011-06-30T08:58:24.017+01:00Jonathan West,
You are quite right, thankyou, it s...Jonathan West,<br />You are quite right, thankyou, it should be there, it is not. The error will be rectified as soon as I get our webmaster and safeguarding officer together.Fr Ray Blakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-53329567945061700692011-06-30T01:13:50.581+01:002011-06-30T01:13:50.581+01:00Fr Ray
Could you point out where the link can be ...Fr Ray<br /><br />Could you point out where the link can be found? I can't find it, and neither can a Google websearch of the site.<br /><br />And also I would like to point out that a link to the diocesan policy is not quite the same as actually having a policy of your own. Safeguarding policies have to be tailored to the requirements of each individual organisation. For instance, they have to provide the names and contact details of the safeguarding officers, so that people know who to approach in the event of then needing to report an incident of abuse.<br /><br />Please ensure without delay that your parish writes and implements an effective safeguarding policy of its own. The lack of any reference to it on the parish website, combined with your reply to my question gives me every reason to think that safeguarding has been given an entirely inadequate priority in your parish.<br /><br />Of course, the policy can depend heavily on the diocesan policy, and even refer to large chunks of it. I've had a look at it and it isn't bad. I could pick a few nits with it, but I'll say that I have seen far worse policies written for Catholic schools. But some aspects, such as names of officers, are unique to the parish, so you must have something of your own policy.<br /><br />I presume also that you have a central register of appointments, where you have recorded the CRB and List 99 checks of all staff and volunteers who work with children, and that the register is subject to regular outside audit?Jonathan Westhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00527063732905729010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-18224211041756453762011-06-30T00:26:58.439+01:002011-06-30T00:26:58.439+01:00Father Ray
Your comment not clear.(12.05am. 30/6) ...Father Ray<br />Your comment not clear.(12.05am. 30/6) Is it a typo?Joenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-3834073529099124112011-06-30T00:05:40.968+01:002011-06-30T00:05:40.968+01:00Mr West,
Our praisf follows our diocesan safe guar...Mr West,<br />Our praisf follows our diocesan safe guarding policy, there should be a link the diocesan site on our parish site.Fr Ray Blakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-51992317579188297082011-06-29T22:26:04.583+01:002011-06-29T22:26:04.583+01:00Mr West may I refer you to the case of Woolmington...Mr West may I refer you to the case of Woolmington v DPP [1935] AC 462.<br />"There is a single golden thread running through the web of English Criminal Law which is that the burden of proving guilt rests with the prosecution ... a man shall be presumed innocent until proven otherwise".Richard Reevesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-34612168708726194472011-06-29T21:42:39.362+01:002011-06-29T21:42:39.362+01:00If I were the Bishop of the Priest in question I w...If I were the Bishop of the Priest in question I would do the following. <br /><br />Iwould order him to a life of prayer and pennance in a monstary under strict supvervision by a Monastic Priest chosen by the Father Abbot/Father Superior of the Monastary in question. <br /><br />Believe it or not that is what used to happend, and actually happened in the case of the late Fr. Marcel Marcel.<br /><br />I would also consider whether or not it was appropriate to make an announcement to the current parish of the Priest concerning the reaons for his departure, whether or not to make such an announcement would depend on several factors.Just another mad Catholichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10503510474554718305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-11797021670207007592011-06-29T20:41:37.256+01:002011-06-29T20:41:37.256+01:00Miss Veronica,
We are going about engaging in spi...Miss Veronica,<br /><br />We are going about engaging in spiritual warfare.<br /><br />The jails have been infiltrated with the Holy Rosary, we are attempting to oust Freemason's from positions of authority in the local Diocese, and an attempt is being made to build a Catholic Monastary here in the fashion before the English king's take-over.<br /><br />Among other things too numerous to here-in contain.<br /><br />The children of darkness work far harder than the children of Light.<br /><br />Have you contributed to extending the Kingdom of Christ?<br /><br />*Pablo the Mexicanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09384415590309803327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-70982709866745027482011-06-29T19:43:42.821+01:002011-06-29T19:43:42.821+01:00Veronica,
I entirely agree with you. Words are fi...Veronica,<br /><br />I entirely agree with you. Words are fine things, but they have to be matched by actions.<br /><br />As for what I'm doing, I'm applying such pressure as I can to ensure that the safeguarding policies of two local schools are brought up to a good standard, having previously both been one long excuse for doing nothing in the face of abuses. The schools are St. Benedicts's School and St. Augustine's Priory School, both in Ealing, west London.<br /><br />In past times, my children attended both schools, in the days when I didn't realise that care needed to be taken over safeguarding. Fortunately neither of my children was abused, though it was a close shave in the case of my son. The headmaster of the junior school at the time was subsequently convicted of 10 charges of indecent assault and one of sexual assault against 5 different boys, and sentenced to 5 years in prison.<br /><br />You can read more about it on <a href="http://scepticalthoughts.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">my blog</a>.<br /><br />I notice that there is no safeguarding information provided in Fr Ray's parish website. <br /><br />Fr Ray, could you tell us what safeguarding arrangements you have?Jonathan Westhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00527063732905729010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-12795848915428099322011-06-29T16:17:15.503+01:002011-06-29T16:17:15.503+01:00Just another mad catholic
I'd like to put a s...Just another mad catholic<br /><br />I'd like to put a scenario to you. This isn't hypothetical, it has actually happened.I would like you to tell me what you think is the appropriate response. (Anybody else is free to join in with responses if they wish.)<br /><br />A few years ago, a man in his 30s made a complain to the police concerning abuse he said he had suffered in his teens at the hands of a priest who was also a teacher at his school.<br /><br />The police investigated. The priest denied the specific event in question, but under police questioning admitted to a similar assault on the same boy which had occurred during a school trip abroad.<br /><br />Because of the way the law stood at the time, the incident on the school trip, even though admitted, could not be prosecuted in the UK. <br /><br />The alleged sexual assault in the UK eventually came to trial. Tapes of the police questioning, including the admission of the incident abroad, were played to the jury. One of the lines of defence used by the defending barrister was to claim that the boy, knowing full well that the abuse abroad couldn't be prosecuted, had invented an incident in the UK which <i>could</i> be prosecuted.<br /><br />The priest was acquitted.<br /><br />So we have a situation where a priest has not been convicted of any crime, but has admitted to a sexual assault which cannot for legal reasons be prosecuted.<br /><br />What should happen next?Jonathan Westhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00527063732905729010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-82955779768501132722011-06-29T08:45:45.879+01:002011-06-29T08:45:45.879+01:00To all the commenters
On behalf of mothers of abu...To all the commenters<br /><br />On behalf of mothers of abuse victims and mothers of "guilt by association" priest victims:<br /><br />This post, and the previous one on the subject, has generated 139 comments to date.<br />Apart from fine words and heated debate-<br /><br />WHAT ARE YOU PERSONALLY GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?Veronicanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-80295827378720997952011-06-29T08:30:51.306+01:002011-06-29T08:30:51.306+01:00mr west
I can't go into much detail at the m...mr west <br /><br />I can't go into much detail at the moment because I need to scoot off to work but I'll be brief. <br /><br />YES, until an inividual is convicted of a serious crime by a jury of 12 of his peers he possess the right to a good name and the presumption of inocence, after all the mere fact that an investigation is taking place should not imply that the person being investigated is guilty, the Guildford Four and the Maguire seven could tell you that.Just another mad Catholichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10503510474554718305noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-77088923129214735232011-06-29T00:24:53.196+01:002011-06-29T00:24:53.196+01:00just another mad catholic
You remember wrong abou...just another mad catholic<br /><br />You remember wrong about Huntley. He was investigated by the police and then arrested. He pleaded not guilty at his trial.<br /><br />So I'll repeat the question. <br /><br />What do you mean by Ian Huntley having a right to a good name? Does this mean that the police shouldn't have investigated him when there started to be evidence that he had murdered Holly and Jessica?Jonathan Westhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00527063732905729010noreply@blogger.com