tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post2308457962594284961..comments2023-12-16T16:17:43.886+00:00Comments on Fr Ray Blake's Blog: Getting Cardinal Heenan RightFr Ray Blakehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comBlogger26125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-74876790675786767572013-06-28T16:00:00.833+01:002013-06-28T16:00:00.833+01:00The term 'hymn sandwich' has been used in ...The term 'hymn sandwich' has been used in Anglican circles for a long time to describe those non-liturgical services which can still be found in the CofE.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-63941745483508179112013-06-28T13:05:26.727+01:002013-06-28T13:05:26.727+01:00I think that it is The New Liturgical blog which h...I think that it is The New Liturgical blog which has described the usual Sunday Mass as a Hymn Sandwich. And that is what many, if not most of them are. Many of the "Songs"...I will not call them "Hymns"...are very Protestant in that they undermine the reality of the Real Presence. They talk often only about the bread and the wine and not the Body and Blood of Jesus.<br />I really do hate a Hymn Sandwich! JARayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18138004129894177863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-37837187799420324212013-06-28T11:01:29.773+01:002013-06-28T11:01:29.773+01:00I understand that the 1967 prototype Missa Normati...I understand that the 1967 prototype Missa Normativa was celebrated by Bugnini mostly in Italian. It would not have included the Roman Canon, since the reformers had decided to do away with it (Paul VI later reinstated it) and the Offertory would have been even more perfunctory than in the later rite, since Paul also restored the In spiritu humilitatis and Orate fratres (much to Bugnini's chagrin as he didn't want mention of sacrifice at this point). Despite this, the service was timed at 55 minutes.<br /><br />Heenan's was not the only dissenting voice. Only a minority of the bishops present (71 out of 176) voted 'placet'; there were 43 'non placet' and 62 'juxta modum'. People assume that it was celebrated ad apsidem, but was it? Versus populum was almost an article of faith for the reformers, and by 1967 temporary forward altars were commonplace. John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-18682299564208277642013-06-27T20:46:39.596+01:002013-06-27T20:46:39.596+01:00I think that Cardinal Heenan was spot on.Too much ...I think that Cardinal Heenan was spot on.Too much singing can distract from prayer,sometimes I long for a quiet,simple Mass or a Low Mass in the EF.MC Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14950845400638779751noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-59211059997986713162013-06-27T14:28:21.708+01:002013-06-27T14:28:21.708+01:00Think of Tallis, Byrd, Fairfax, Dunstable et al. B...Think of Tallis, Byrd, Fairfax, Dunstable et al. By the way, what a very strange picture to support the hypothesis of Protestant superlatives. Rather gross, in fact.<br />Back to the topic, I love High Mass but, day to day, the contemplative silence of the Latin Low Mass is, for me, more spiritually invigorating.<br />I can't accept that Cardinal Heenan regarded the new Mass as effeminate; more that it would appeal to women and children at that time. <br />What I do think is that, over the years, the Mass has become incrementally far less muscular than the early vernacular Mass. Inevitable, maybe, but not necessarily foreseen when it was first promulgated. Gentyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05569143943867323153noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-87525281190729243352013-06-27T08:46:37.770+01:002013-06-27T08:46:37.770+01:00I think that Fr. Cipolla has overreached himself i...I think that Fr. Cipolla has overreached himself in quoting the late Cardinal Heenan to support his main argument. His mistake is to treat Cardinal Heenan as a contemporary with our perspective of the liturgy when in fact he belonged to another generation with a different mind set to ours (The Mass may be eternal but "the past is a foreign country they did things differently in those days" L P Hartley wrote). Cardinal Heenan certainly wasn't slow to see the doctrinal weaknesses of the new order of Mass or its pastoral implications based on his knowledge of his flock; but to conclude that the new liturgy would effeminize the priesthood requires the gift of hind site, of which Cardinal Heenan would have been incapable.Gadflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07537123281964278798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-59867868079296960812013-06-27T07:41:40.086+01:002013-06-27T07:41:40.086+01:00A Protestant tinge? Would that they had! Protestan...A Protestant tinge? Would that they had! Protestantism has produced most of the very best church music. Think of Bach, Mendelssohn, Stanford, Howells...Poppy Tupperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08234000100662333903noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-40946885247624271112013-06-27T02:15:37.580+01:002013-06-27T02:15:37.580+01:00I actually prefer low Mass. Sometimes my ears are ...I actually prefer low Mass. Sometimes my ears are left ringing after Mass and I need to stay behind with Jesus in the tabernacle. Lately, I have hungered deeply for silence.Rachel M. Gohlmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13972993153075842439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-25151141217763422632013-06-27T01:16:13.049+01:002013-06-27T01:16:13.049+01:00John Nolan,
Was all of it Italian?John Nolan,<br />Was all of it Italian?Fr Ray Blakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-58036046023200637272013-06-27T00:30:36.083+01:002013-06-27T00:30:36.083+01:00Jacobi the New rite is not female orientated. Fem...Jacobi the New rite is not female orientated. Femininity is not an emasculated masculinity. Fr. Cipolla went to some lengths to point this out in his article. You yourself state that men and women prefer the older rite. Furthermore, if I look around all the people and families I know it is the females that are the driving force to attend the older Mass. The men are not the main drivers.<br /><br />Fr Ray, Cardinal Heenan's flock were mainly Irish or of Irish descent. For 200 odd yrs they had to snatch low mass in hills and woods or anywhere they could get it. As a result a distorted view of public worship may have been seeded. Sunday Mass is not a private devotion. It is a public act of worship which ought to include psalm-singing and gregorian chant. Personally there is nothing I like better than low Mass. However, this is not the highest form of public worship than can be offered to our good God. I take your excellent point about the selective use of the cardinal's comment and it is quite interesting to see the whole context. Thank you. TLMWxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15720022091832839393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-2585343283988880442013-06-27T00:28:23.812+01:002013-06-27T00:28:23.812+01:00Reading this, one or two things spring to mind. Th...Reading this, one or two things spring to mind. The Missa Normativa trialled in the Sistine chapel in 1967 was celebrated in Italian, not Latin. In the same year Tres Abhinc Annos mandated changes to the Mass which foreshadowed the Novus Ordo and gave the coup de grace to the Roman Rite. These included the vernacular Canon, shorn of most of the time-honoured rubrical gestures, and the merging of the priest's and people's Communion. <br /><br />Although Heenan comes across as a liturgical conservative (he didn't like the 1955 Ordo for Holy Week, for example), in 1964 the English hierarchy ordered the vernacular to be used at all public Masses for nearly all of the first half of Mass, which as the Catholic Herald remarked at the time, was more than the Council was recommending. Versus populum celebration suddenly became widespread. I doubt that priests did this on their own initiative.<br /><br />In 1967 I was a teenager in a Lincolnshire parish, and can't speak for Westminster, but I would seriously doubt that every parish had a Latin Mass on Sundays. Mine certainly didn't, and the local Ordinary (Ellis of Nottingham) did not even like the vernacular Mass.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-11001295894678922642013-06-27T00:06:25.987+01:002013-06-27T00:06:25.987+01:00That should be "in your first comment". ...That should be "in your first comment". Sorry all!The Rad Tradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-63516752722951157412013-06-26T22:26:24.706+01:002013-06-26T22:26:24.706+01:00Fr Cipolla’s article is a profound and accurate as...Fr Cipolla’s article is a profound and accurate assessment of what has happened to the New Mass. Contrary to what has been suggested, it is quite precise in its language.<br /><br />It argues that the New Mass, while still valid, has been effeminised. It has been turned from the re-enactment of the Redemptive Death and Resurrection of Christ into an inward directed, female orientated, liturgically improper, distraction from that Sacrifice.<br /><br />Yes it is effeminised and most Catholic men – and women for that matter – have shown their disinterest by walking away in their hundreds of thousands,as in the constantly falling Mass attendance over the last decades.<br /><br />What Cardinal Heenan predicted, including his warnings about too much emphasis on Biblical readings i.e., the Protestant approach, the diminution of belief in the Real Presence, and the abolition of the continuity effect of Latin, is exactly what has happened.Jacobihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04743062941733814176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-19845095857232403922013-06-26T22:07:48.159+01:002013-06-26T22:07:48.159+01:00Yellow on gray...why are you persecuting us? [I s...Yellow on gray...why are you persecuting us? [I so loved the all black...the whites and yellows so crisp and easy to read.]gemoftheoceanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05521207668262592414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-28834532166512183922013-06-26T21:55:09.620+01:002013-06-26T21:55:09.620+01:00Mr period:
I do not support the article. I read i...Mr period:<br /><br />I do not support the article. I read it once and found it flat, but I did not seek to speak in such terms ("absurd," "monstrous self-importance," "twisting of what old...") that inevitably mean characterizing its author as a pent-up, academic snob. The first line is your first comment borders on calling Fr. Cipolla intellectually dishonest, which he most certainly is not.<br /><br />"Deacon" may not be in a dictionary as a verb, but it's used colloquially enough in sacristies to have entered my vocabulary, and that of some others'.The Rad Tradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-39471314664751699732013-06-26T21:53:07.871+01:002013-06-26T21:53:07.871+01:00Fr Dickson,
For the sake of clarity I have added t...Fr Dickson,<br />For the sake of clarity I have added the whole of the Cardinal intervention.<br />I would suggest it is not the Mass per se but the fact High/Sung Mass was presented as not merely "normative" but the usual practice for N.O. that was being objected to, this at the time meant with psalms with antiphons, the three readings, the Canon aloud, Gospel and offertory processions, biddings etc.<br />I think Heenan was shocked by the complexity and the time it took, and the innovation! But mainly the lack of pastoral sensitivity, what his reaction would have been if it were in the vernacular, I think the readings were, I don't know.<br /><br />However I do not think Fr Cipolla is justified in coming to his conclusion by what the quote he cites.<br />He seems unfamiliar with the whole intervention.Fr Ray Blakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-8930560131211333992013-06-26T21:24:35.269+01:002013-06-26T21:24:35.269+01:00Cardinal Heenan was spot on in his reaction to the...Cardinal Heenan was spot on in his reaction to the music. I've gotten to the point where I can't stand listening to it and no longer sing the songs because they interfere with my worship of God. The songs sung at the Masses are almost uniformly ugly or insipid or inane and most of them have a Protestant tinge to them. The best moment I had at Church the other week was after Mass when I went to pray at the statue of St. Joseph. Why was it the best time? Because *finally* I could hear myself think which I never seem able to do at Mass with all the singing, singing, singing going on. Just as I start talking to God along comes another song to sing. The focus is on us worshipping as a group with the songs put there to tell us what to say to God and we aren't allowed anymore enough time as individuals to speak our *own* thoughts to God from our hearts. Anniehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02198419417921454525noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-73672417128775824232013-06-26T20:07:42.393+01:002013-06-26T20:07:42.393+01:00Father,
while it is true, as you point out, that ...Father, <br />while it is true, as you point out, that “Cardinal Heenan goes on to say”, he also states, before the paragraph quoted by Fr Cipola and yourself, that “After studying the so-called Normative Mass it was clear to me...”. It was therefore a study of the new Rite and not simply the singing that he seems to have found problematic, which justifies Fr Cipola’s use of the text. In fact, Cardinal Heenan went on in the same intervention to note six points of criticism, including the weakening of the Eucharistic Prayer against increasing biblical readings and the loss of Latin as the loss of a necessary universal language for a universal Church.Fr Dicksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11702725497183621855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-90660830608070612202013-06-26T19:24:58.651+01:002013-06-26T19:24:58.651+01:00Real names would be even better,what is the point ...Real names would be even better,what is the point of being ashamed of letting people know who you are or what you are really aboutnickbrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18412418782531527758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-31257972286952213832013-06-26T18:59:39.043+01:002013-06-26T18:59:39.043+01:00No more anonymous comments - get yourself a name, ...No more anonymous comments - get yourself a name, preferably use your own.Fr Ray Blakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-70176948001530549282013-06-26T18:57:41.583+01:002013-06-26T18:57:41.583+01:00The Rad Trad, my comment is a criticism of method,...The Rad Trad, my comment is a criticism of method, not of content. I have cast no aspersions on Fr. Cipolla. Merely because you do not like my comment doe not make it untrue. <br /><br />Perhaps you might like to be a little more circumspect and a little less quick to defend an article merely because you support its conclusions.<br /><br />Also, there is no verb 'to deacon'..https://www.blogger.com/profile/04611694996611765479noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-76451295221607425342013-06-26T18:33:46.636+01:002013-06-26T18:33:46.636+01:00New Catholic,
Making claims that are untrue is dis...New Catholic,<br />Making claims that are untrue is dishonest, not doing proper research is dishonest. <br />It does not serve our cause, it does not belong to Christ!Fr Ray Blakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-55405123594547062102013-06-26T17:25:09.569+01:002013-06-26T17:25:09.569+01:00Father, the comment did not go through simply beca...Father, the comment did not go through simply because the word "dishonest" was used. It is a strong word that impinges on the motivation of the author. If you had contacted me, I would have explained this to you.New Catholichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04118576661605931910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-3462305548416823952013-06-26T17:09:01.529+01:002013-06-26T17:09:01.529+01:00Dear period,
Your comment is not an actual critic...Dear period,<br /><br />Your comment is not an actual criticism, just a broad swipe at an article you did not like. Fr. Cipolla, who has celebrated and deaconed at a parish I once attended, possesses none of the narcissistic traits you indirectly ascribe to him in your reaction to his piece. Critique Fr. Cipolla if you like, but, like Fr Blake, say something concrete rather than tossing, what amounts to, animadversions against the writer himself.<br />The Rad Tradhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00899289024837953345noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-65518438312476675982013-06-26T16:38:23.972+01:002013-06-26T16:38:23.972+01:00Thank you Father, very interesting insight. Thank you Father, very interesting insight. Konstantinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13701303189143549671noreply@blogger.com