tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post605161993101152116..comments2023-12-16T16:17:43.886+00:00Comments on Fr Ray Blake's Blog: The Italian OperaFr Ray Blakehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-52750025616486525122014-08-26T11:17:21.113+01:002014-08-26T11:17:21.113+01:00Reminds me of that I Love Lucy bit where Lucy was ...Reminds me of that I Love Lucy bit where Lucy was accused of using counterfeit money. Lucy spoke only English, and said something to Ricky who spoke English and Spanish. Ricky spoke Spanish, to a guy who knew Spanish and German. The Spanish guy spoke to a French cop who spoke German and French. And he translated the German into French for his boss. Then the chain of questions went back and forth. Hilarious. You can see it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xtbbo_lHqAsgemoftheoceanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05521207668262592414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-49643957688558014762014-08-25T07:43:40.501+01:002014-08-25T07:43:40.501+01:00I wouldn't be so quick to throw out the Italia...I wouldn't be so quick to throw out the Italian language or an Italo Centric Church. God chose Italy to be the center of his Church until the end of time. I guess He must like Italians a lot or see a benefit that Italian culture offers the Holy See that may not exist in another. It's best to let things be as they are knowing that God put them that way for a reason.Roberthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01668784968266595654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-82913447139155471372014-08-21T20:03:33.152+01:002014-08-21T20:03:33.152+01:00The Pope used Latin, not Italian, when he celebrat...The Pope used Latin, not Italian, when he celebrated Mass in Korea. Most of the singing was in Korean. He may have preached in Italian, and one can assume people were given a translation.<br /><br />Pope Francis speaks a little French. He studied in Germany but admits his German is rusty. His English is probably not good enough for him to celebrate Mass in the language. When he visits the USA it will be interesting to see whether he opts for Latin or Spanish.John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-31712684025918881932014-08-19T20:51:02.861+01:002014-08-19T20:51:02.861+01:00As I’ve noted before, when I arrived in Rome in th...As I’ve noted before, when I arrived in Rome in the early 60s, Latin was the language of the Pontifical Universities. And that sat well with all of us – from every country under the sun. It was a common bond between Europeans, Americans, Africans, South Americans, Asians, etc. – during lectures. Outside of class, Italian or English were the preferred languages of communication.<br /><br />Over time some professors progressively used more Italian during lectures. That did not sit well with us. Not that we didn’t understand it. By now we were all fluent. But favoring one language just because of geographic location - forgetting that this was an international community and a Universal Church – got our hackles up.<br /><br />As to the vagaries of Spanish as spoken in diverse countries, that is hardly unique. A Neapolitan speaking his dialect could scarcely be understood by a Venetian - and the Roman dialect could stump both of them. Not to mention that - closer to home - a Geordie could flummox a Cockney. And so on…GORhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14313101159848740722noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-51391184405318250612014-08-19T17:12:26.819+01:002014-08-19T17:12:26.819+01:00@ Deoacveritati:
I am not an American and am not ...@ Deoacveritati:<br /><br />I am not an American and am not a fluent Spanish speaker. However I have visited Argentina and other Latin American countries fairly extensively.<br /><br />My comments are based on remarks and stories told to me by my many Latin American friends, over some years, mostly Argentinian, but also from Peru, Venezuela, Columbia and Mexico. The one about Mexico is fairly recent. They are all intelligent educated middle-class middle-management, types who also speak good English, as that was necessary for their job. They would have no reason at all to mislead me about the enormous variability of Latin American “Spanish” in general. As for Argentinian “Spanish”, well that is common knowledge both in Argentina and elsewhere.<br /><br />Peace be with you!<br /><br /><br />Oh I should have also said Equador. have you ever been to Manizales!Jacobihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04743062941733814176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-58248238684195892892014-08-19T10:27:36.370+01:002014-08-19T10:27:36.370+01:00Deoacveritati: The fact of the matter is that S...Deoacveritati: The fact of the matter is that Spanish, as spoken in Argentina, is not the same as that spoken in Spain. The pronunciation is different to start off with. I remember arriving in Buenos Aires from Madrid and being asked whether I had seen any 'Gosha' which puzzled me until I realised they were talking about Goya. And so on and so on. Indeed in parts of Spain such as Galicia there are differences and indeed differences in the written language. The point Jacobi is making is that for somebody in Europe who knows Spanish Spanish may not always understand some idiomatic expression peculiar to Argentinian Spanish or some colloquialism or get the exact nuance. This is always a problem in translating from one language to another. It is especially difficult with living languages where the meaning of words in a single language change over time and often become pejorative in their meaning. This is why Latin is important just because it is dead and therefore the meaning of words does not change and can therefore serve as a fixed reference for meaning. Do not be sensitive about what is standard linguistics! Nicolas Bellordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08063019108964247676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-51462556653065988972014-08-19T08:33:10.295+01:002014-08-19T08:33:10.295+01:00I think we all know that there is not the remotest...I think we all know that there is not the remotest chance that Latin could ever again be a universal language. 'Bring back Latin' is antiquarian nostalgia. In practice, whether we like it or not, English is now the universal language in every walk of life. The only sensible option in international communication is to use English. Alongside that we can rejoice in the variety and richness of the other living languages. As schoolchildren used to say, 'Latin is a language as dead as dead can be. It killed the ancient Romans and now it's killing me.'Savonarolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12547523172291007631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-21842064510127309932014-08-19T08:04:53.162+01:002014-08-19T08:04:53.162+01:00In 1976 I decided to take up Italian in evening cl...In 1976 I decided to take up Italian in evening class. I was immediately struck by how close to Latin it is.Also how easy it is to the English ear. It's far easier to understand than French which has been the foreign language of choice as taught in English schools. I learned French at school and during my career made great efforts to become proficient in the language for business. I confess that I was not very successful. In Italian, I found myself articulating and understanding far easier. Even today, when I haven't studied the language for almost 40 years, helped by the subtitles, I can still understand some of the dialogue in Italian TV programmes.<br /><br />As the Vatican is in Italy, I have no problem with the working language being Italian. I guess it was still Italian even before V2. johnfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16233791349837340770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-68910503552974781932014-08-19T07:00:45.906+01:002014-08-19T07:00:45.906+01:00Bring back Latin!Bring back Latin!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-90685944632987448822014-08-19T02:54:35.114+01:002014-08-19T02:54:35.114+01:00Jacobi I really hope the owner of the blog allows ...Jacobi I really hope the owner of the blog allows my comment to you.<br /><br />This is what I will take issue with, you say:<br />"The current Pope’s native language is not Spanish, but rather Argentinian Spanish, which can be a most variable blend, dependant on background, social and financial"<br /><br />Your comment is very stupid and ignorant typical american thinking that if you are not white or speak Spanish like the people of Spain with lisp then those of us who are from other countries in Hispanoamerica then we DON'T speak Spanish.<br /><br />You are simply wrong and on top you are very stupid.<br /><br />We all in Hispanoamerica speak Castillian the only thing is that we don't do it with the lisp.<br /><br />We have certain differences in how we express ourselves sometimes or we used certain synonyms for some words but NOTHING different that we could understand what we are saying.<br /><br />So please think before you speak because you comments can be very offensive.Deoacveritatihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02595013119417170492noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-35829467140711647332014-08-17T22:35:20.273+01:002014-08-17T22:35:20.273+01:00Good point. But a big problem is that some of the ...Good point. But a big problem is that some of the best diocesean and curial archbishops are Italians. The patriarch of Venice, Cardinal Piacenza, Cardinal Bagnasco, Archbishop Pozzo, etc. are all splendid examples.ACC92https://www.blogger.com/profile/15791032481648674961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-22316297673121913482014-08-17T22:28:32.777+01:002014-08-17T22:28:32.777+01:00Father,
You raise a matter of critical importance...Father,<br /><br />You raise a matter of critical importance which has been at the heart of much of the confusion in Catholic Truth and of Papal Authority, in recent Church affaires, namely language, and in particular the abandonment of <br />Latin.<br /><br />The current Pope’s native language is not Spanish, but rather Argentinian Spanish, which can be a most variable blend, dependant on background, social and financial. I speak as someone who has spent much time in Argentina, admittedly on business, but relevant nonetheless. <br /><br />An Argentinian in Mexico for instance, will speak standard Spanish, (Andalusian?), lest the Mexicans fall off their chairs laughing.<br /><br />Speaking to Koreans in “Spanish “ or “Italian” and more significantly in his somewhat indifferent “English” may have gone down well with the crowds , but I’m sure has hardly contributed to the deepening of Catholic thought in Continuity. <br /><br />The reason a standard language, originally Greek, and then some sort of classical Latin, was adopted by the early Church, was to overcome all this confusion.<br />Once again, because of this false “archaeologism” which has so plagued the Church in the post-Vatican II period, we are condemned to relearn, painfully, the lessons our ancestors had to. <br /><br />Future generations, after much confusion, and disintegration, may well grasp this, and adopt some standard language, such as Oxford English, hardly ever spoken now by Brits., but very much so by foreigners.<br /><br />But I personally, I hope, that future Popes will save us all a lot of trouble, and just return to Latin.Jacobihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04743062941733814176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-90241189921328906282014-08-17T20:01:38.263+01:002014-08-17T20:01:38.263+01:00Of course Bergoglio, as his name implies and like ...Of course Bergoglio, as his name implies and like many Argentines, is of Italian abstraction.<br /><br />If he can speak passable English (cf. Pius xii) in Korea why not in Europe? He has many puzzling quirks!vetusta ecclesiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09454059029260192711noreply@blogger.com