tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post672783043627036701..comments2023-12-16T16:17:43.886+00:00Comments on Fr Ray Blake's Blog: CharismaticsFr Ray Blakehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-62000204732252226202011-07-04T15:37:42.446+01:002011-07-04T15:37:42.446+01:00This is a very interesting debate. At first hand ...This is a very interesting debate. At first hand their 'liturgy' would appear to be very evangelical christiain-like, very emmotion based. I have some friends that are seminarians in a well known diocesan seminary and they recounted stories of people 'speaking in tongues',(although I am sure that this particlur manifestation is not the same as the orginal biblical form) and as it turned out a chap that has studies ancient biblical languages said that what they were 'speaking' was absolute profanity. Hardly the work of the Paraclete. Plus that when we consider what is actually happening at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the re presentation of the sacrifice of Cavalvary, that it is the most stupendous supernatural event on earth, one has to ask why such spontaneous emmotion liturgies are even necessary.dennisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-44557913001293513262011-07-01T02:21:07.584+01:002011-07-01T02:21:07.584+01:00Looks like something out of the Exorcist.
http://w...Looks like something out of the Exorcist.<br />http://www.filmcritic.com/reviews/1973/the-exorcist/Bob Kovacsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-48167543912892434622011-06-28T06:04:38.464+01:002011-06-28T06:04:38.464+01:00Richard, concerning your comment about my comment ...Richard, concerning your comment about my comment about Protestantism: what gave it its appeal among the learned was the prevalence of Nominalism. This is the philosophy that says that only individuals are real.<br /><br />Now, while it is true that only individuals exist (only they are substances), relations are be real as well. If there are several people really related in a particular way, their mutual relations are real. This the nominalists denied.<br /><br />Once you're innominalist territory, you can't really do metaphysics and you can't really handle concepts like transubstantiation. Thus dies faith in the Blessed Sacrament.<br /><br />As for private judgement, you cannot be a Protestant unless you adopt this principle, though there is no reason why you cannot retain it and be something other than a Protestant.Michael Petekhttp://www.crownofdavid.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-48027149366018433082011-06-28T00:42:50.774+01:002011-06-28T00:42:50.774+01:00Most Charismatic friends and family have long sinc...Most Charismatic friends and family have long since left the Catholic Church for Pentecostal gatherings or no religion at all. Many Charismatics are staunch supporters of the Medjugore movement. The Charismatic movement has its' roots in Protestant pentecostalism so I've never really understood why it is supported by the Church. I suppose it's Ecumenism...ServusMariaeNhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13963287463957393931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-46608250399139686932011-06-27T21:07:08.990+01:002011-06-27T21:07:08.990+01:00"... is more orthodox than the majority of th..."... is more orthodox than the majority of the bishops of England & Wales."<br /><br />Really? <br />I think this might be a bit of an indication of what I was criticising. I don't know of any un-orthodox bishops in E&W, some might be eccentric but not unorthodox.Fr Ray Blakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-65059426238268316332011-06-27T20:44:06.541+01:002011-06-27T20:44:06.541+01:00I do wish to stick up for New Dawn and Celebrate C...I do wish to stick up for New Dawn and Celebrate Catholic Charismatic conferences. Normally there are always daily masses with either a priest or bishop.<br /><br />I challenge you to call Myles Dempsey un-catholic. He founded the annual New Dawn conference at Walsingham and is more orthodox than the majority of the bishops of England & Wales.ORA PRO NOBIShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17546605493757534530noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-4797779582474994942011-06-27T11:45:40.798+01:002011-06-27T11:45:40.798+01:00Bob Kovacs: 'Because in most parishes it's...Bob Kovacs: 'Because in most parishes it's all about ME!' This sounds like quite a wild generalisation. As Our Lord says, it's always easier to see the splinter in your brother's eye than the plank in your own. Perhaps the Church needs to look at itself to see why people are attracted to movements like the charismatics and seemingly rejecting their fathers' traditions?Ignatiusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-30200576240182099242011-06-25T17:26:10.235+01:002011-06-25T17:26:10.235+01:00But the people in the picture do look like they ar...But the people in the picture do look like they are auditioning for a bit part in a horror movie.Richardnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-25401092757912160732011-06-25T17:04:45.393+01:002011-06-25T17:04:45.393+01:00Michael Petek said (9:52 PM):
"The distinguis...Michael Petek said (9:52 PM):<br />"The distinguishing characteristics of Protestantism are nominalism in philosophy and the rejection of the sacrificial character of the Eucharist."<br /><br />Although those are common characteristics of protestants, surely they are neither universal nor defining?<br /><br />I thought that the defining characteristic of Protestantism is the belief that there is something higher than the Authority and Tradition of the Church.<br /><br />This higher authority is generally either "sola scriptura" (which boils down to the individual's own interpretation of the Bible), or personal revelation.Richardnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-91803614660715370152011-06-25T10:09:58.153+01:002011-06-25T10:09:58.153+01:00Francis said:
"Are the people in the congreg...Francis said:<br /><br />"Are the people in the congregation who raise their hands in the "orans" position during the Our Father doing some charismatic-inspired thing? I'd love to know where that silly habit comes from!"<br /><br />I suppose we'll find out on Judgment day who's form of praise and worship was or wasn't acceptable/fitting, to God. A clanging cymbal in the ears (or eyes) of man might be a joyful noise unto God who'll be looking a the heart first rather than the outward means of expression. It's not a test to pass or fail though. It's a love afair between a bride and groom!mehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06962374096401238994noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-34200584052322652492011-06-25T06:24:38.659+01:002011-06-25T06:24:38.659+01:00It isn't polite to make fun of spelling mistak...It isn't polite to make fun of spelling mistakes even if the mistakes are amusing.<br /><br />Father - please don't accept those kinds of comments.Physiocrathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13682019625346594568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-9394087371425635772011-06-25T02:14:37.523+01:002011-06-25T02:14:37.523+01:00Fr. Ray,
Are the people in the congregation who r...Fr. Ray,<br /><br />Are the people in the congregation who raise their hands in the "orans" position during the Our Father doing some charismatic-inspired thing? I'd love to know where that silly habit comes from!Francishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13769697942265014482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-77532058623841698562011-06-24T22:42:33.599+01:002011-06-24T22:42:33.599+01:00In origins I agree with this analysis, but the mov...In origins I agree with this analysis, but the movement has changed for the better in many places.<br /><br />Here in Australia by far the most orthodox of our religious orders - and attracting the most vocations - are the Missionaries of God's Love, a charismatic order, but one based around Eucharistic Adoration...Kate Edwardshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01000040465724868745noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-53529696727514624802011-06-24T20:21:58.429+01:002011-06-24T20:21:58.429+01:00Quote: "Ignatius said...
Rather than sim...Quote: "Ignatius said...<br /><br /> Rather than simply dismissing Charismatics for not being properly Catholic, it might be more to the point to ask why the movement has become so successful and appealing to so many. Could it possibly be that people find more of God in Charismaticism than they do in orthodox Catholicism? Maybe God is bigger than our orthodoxies."<br /><br />Because in most parishes it's all about ME!. Plus they have no other choices. Most have never new anything but what has taken place after Vatican 2. Maybe people are unable and unwilling to accept and embrace their for fathers traditions. They want entertainment and a false feeling of God's energies flowing through them. Like the Force!. If you get my drift!. I don't think you would have seen St Dominic, or St Benedict waiving their hands and speaking giberish during their time of prayer or during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Not even in the Eastern Churches during their Divine Liturgies would you have found this ridiculous behavior.Bob Kovacsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-1583944202706743362011-06-24T20:14:24.099+01:002011-06-24T20:14:24.099+01:00It seems to me that the fundamental flaw of charis...It seems to me that the fundamental flaw of charismatic renewal lies in its understanding of grace. That is, they see the Holy Spirit and his power as being fundamentally irresistible (e.g. ‘slain in the Spirit'), and not working entirely through nature and perfecting nature, but replacing it. Also they conceive of the church not as embracing the whole of humanity in all it's falleness and sinfulness, but as an oasis of faith and a community of the saved and of the faithful. In other words, it is modern day manifestation of the heresy of Jansenism.<br /><br />If that is true, it will explain why it is somewhat hostile to intuitionalism and human traditions, in particular those of the liturgy. For them, grace bypasses and replaces what is human, instead of working through what is human. Of course these are human and liable to corruption and sin: yet sacramental grace is manifest through a received liturgical rite and a received institutional church of human creation. Yet still these have been formed by the Holy Spirit's guidance, despite the failings of man.Oliver Hayeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02790738673074885191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-2027243760276567492011-06-24T18:42:14.297+01:002011-06-24T18:42:14.297+01:00I spent 10 years in the charismatic renewal with 5...I spent 10 years in the charismatic renewal with 5 of those years as a music leader. Our group had a very orthodox priest who was very involved and did not allow any prayer meetings to take place without his presence. He preached at every meeting and while lay people would give reflections, Father's homily was always the teaching. The rosary and Eucharistic adoration were central to the worship of the group as well. I never saw anything improper at any of our meetings, but I have had bad experiences with other groups who did not have strong and involved priest leaders. <br /><br />For me, the Charismatic renewal was a vehicle to bring me into the heart of the Church. Although I did outgrow it and moved into more mainstream Catholic and traditional forms of worship I do not regret my years in the Charismatic renewal. It was a true Christian community of people who loved God and neighbor and were not afraid of fraternal correction.DominiSumushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02219325748138519802noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-3308665710434835832011-06-24T17:18:15.352+01:002011-06-24T17:18:15.352+01:00georgem said...
"I'm not sure I'...georgem said...<br /><br /> "I'm not sure I'd know what to do with an ursus antiquior". I think that you should get it stuffed and mounted.... a competent taxidermist should be able to perform this task.<br />Regarding the role of catechists that was mentioned in the blog; I recently attended a "Day for New Catholics" and was surprised when one catechist present asked us to consider becoming catechists. As a way of encouragement he said ... "You don't need to know any theology....."john-of-haylinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06666868557634613383noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-62069034108189935212011-06-24T13:08:51.830+01:002011-06-24T13:08:51.830+01:00I'm not sure I'd know what to do with an u...I'm not sure I'd know what to do with an ursus antiquior. But I do know what to do in the Usus Antiquior. Lucky for me that I was reasonably well catechised and understand what the priest is doing and why. It's pretty easy to find out, if you can be bothered, and lo! a whole spiritual treasure chest is revealed.<br /><br />Some of us need to be more contemplative in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. There's room for us and room for charismatics who are faithful to the Magisterium, though the latter are not my bag. In God's house there are many mansions, etc.<br /><br />I think joyful might be a more apt word than enjoying. I've plenty of hours in the day to enjoy life; my family, friends, food and drink, leisure, pleasure, to shout and to sing.<br /><br />I am asked only that for one measly hour a week I stop. And dedicate my time solely to God. This can indeed be joyful, even at the Usus Antiquior, as it was at the Corpus Christi Mass at St. Mary Magdalen last evening.georgemnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-62938513927646116122011-06-24T12:20:08.513+01:002011-06-24T12:20:08.513+01:00Traditional Catholic worship IS or should be, Char...Traditional Catholic worship IS or should be, Charismatic and Pentecostal.<br /><br />This applies particularly to Gregorian chant, which when sung correctly, is as charismatic as more recent manifestations of Charismatic worship. It is up to those of us who are aware of it to spread the message by demonstrating that this is so.Physiocrathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13682019625346594568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-17728645889108626982011-06-24T11:49:33.014+01:002011-06-24T11:49:33.014+01:00Just on that point of Pentacostalism, Father. It c...Just on that point of Pentacostalism, Father. It could be that this, in its properly adjusted/purified form, is one of those elements that belongs to the Catholic Church but has in the past been most manifest outside its visible boundaries. Now it has found renewed expression in the Catholic Church. (I could be wrong, of course. This is all subject to discernment by the appropriate authorities). That doesn't mean there won't be problems/defects. All 'new movements' have their hiccups. <br />Doesn't Vatican II teach that we need both the charismatic (not necessarily meaning 'Charismatic') and hierarchical dimensions of the Church? Does this apply?<br />As you say, 'personal experience' is not a sure guide to doctrine or a substitute for authoritative teaching.RJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13871618901190898384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-4412285101834440452011-06-24T11:19:41.152+01:002011-06-24T11:19:41.152+01:00To be a charismatic is to be self indulgent. I rem...To be a charismatic is to be self indulgent. I remember the movement back in the early 80s when I first noticed people in church praying with arms outstretched. I found it a dubious way of praying then and my views are the same today. All of the charismatics I have met have been dismissive of the traditions of the church and its liturgical heritage.<br />Real Christian love does not depend on effusive OTT actions for its integrity.Richard Collinshttp://linenonthehedgerow.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-38442367280151627362011-06-24T10:28:55.102+01:002011-06-24T10:28:55.102+01:00I converted to the Catholic Faith in 1980 and was ...I converted to the Catholic Faith in 1980 and was quickly asked to come to the ‘prayer group’. I duly went for several months, along with our SVP President and a Legion of Mary member. I found some aspects of it very helpful: it taught me extemporary prayer, and bible reading. Had these been done with full adherence to the Church and her Tradition then the movement has a lot to offer. However, within a year of attending I was turned me off: traditional devotions were discarded as not-spirit-inspired; and the bible became such a focus that our SVP President left the Church to Join a Protestant community because he couldn’t find Catholic Doctrine in the Bible and ‘the Bible is what is important’, and I perceived a kind of superiority within the movement; an attitude of ‘well the rest of the folk will catch up with us when they are open to the Spirit’. That attitude can still be found among many today and I feel is demonstrated by some of the leaders of the Renewal movement who have been given air-time on EWTN. So the movement has benefits but also great dangers, not least the personalism of which you speak, Father. I admit to another problem: all the talk about being ‘baptised in the Spirit’ is suggestive that Sacramental Baptism and Confirmation do not confer the Spirit; indeed, they seem to be seen as ‘inferior’; they seem to suggest that Sacramental Baptism and Confirmation are somehow activated until we have been ‘Baptised in the Spirit’. Yes we need people to learn extemporary prayer, but it should not be used or allowed to oust traditional devotions which were good enough for the saints and martyrs we venerate; and yes we need people to be devoted to reading the scriptures, but in the light of Tradition (with a capital T) as interpreted by the Magisterium (which it is worth noting does not just mean sitting Bishops but the whole of the Magisteium, from The Apostles onwards) –no generation of Bishops stand alone as the Magisterium.Fr G Dicksonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-37275557834030496022011-06-24T09:13:04.492+01:002011-06-24T09:13:04.492+01:00Rather than simply dismissing Charismatics for not...Rather than simply dismissing Charismatics for not being properly Catholic, it might be more to the point to ask why the movement has become so successful and appealing to so many. Could it possibly be that people find more of God in Charismaticism than they do in orthodox Catholicism? Maybe God is bigger than our orthodoxies.Ignatiusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-46008257879597877762011-06-24T07:59:55.361+01:002011-06-24T07:59:55.361+01:00Can't be a lot wrong with a whole lot of Chris...Can't be a lot wrong with a whole lot of Christians enjoying themselves,must be better than a congregation who don't know what they are supposed to do during all the silent periods of the Ursus Antiquior.nickbrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18412418782531527758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-34601789331042779402011-06-24T01:12:28.024+01:002011-06-24T01:12:28.024+01:00I must agree with you Father. I dabbled with the C...I must agree with you Father. I dabbled with the Charismatic movement several years ago and there was at that time a group of them who set themselves up as a mini community, buying property in and around a couple of streets. Over the years this community has disintegrated with all of the scandals that one can think of in modern society. I am so glad that I resisted their attempts to draw me into that community!<br />I am more than a little suspicious of the Charismatic movement these days and I would counsel anyone against having anything to do with them.JARayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18138004129894177863noreply@blogger.com