tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post8202295336878830291..comments2023-12-16T16:17:43.886+00:00Comments on Fr Ray Blake's Blog: Spin, Spin, SpinFr Ray Blakehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-75794463380751450032008-02-14T18:31:00.000+00:002008-02-14T18:31:00.000+00:00Anon. 14/2/08 5:42 PMPolygamy: NoAnon. 14/2/08 5:42 PM<BR/>Polygamy: NoFr Ray Blakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-13252031107663437012008-02-14T17:42:00.000+00:002008-02-14T17:42:00.000+00:00Would an Iman be allowed to perform a polygamous m...Would an Iman be allowed to perform a polygamous marriage?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-75191760855615188402008-02-14T17:41:00.000+00:002008-02-14T17:41:00.000+00:00Islam had got religion in general a bad name in Br...Islam had got religion in general a bad name in Britain and is being used as an excuse to deny the legitimate concerns of other religions. Islam has done nothing for our country, and organised secularism little more. Perhaps we should publicise all that Christian bodies have done in education, care for the sick, care for the homeless, the dying, the handicapped and ask how the secularists would do without our efforts. Society would collapse.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-31672940652027681622008-02-14T00:11:00.000+00:002008-02-14T00:11:00.000+00:00Simon, I don't think that does bear you out.Simon, <BR/>I don't think that does bear you out.Fr Ray Blakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-91601321143781139882008-02-13T23:30:00.000+00:002008-02-13T23:30:00.000+00:00Dear Father,"There is something quite wrong when t...Dear Father,<BR/><BR/>"There is something quite wrong when the law permits me to marry a Catholic, even to a Muslim in my Church, but does not permit the local Iman from marrying a couple in the local mosque."<BR/><BR/>I think that's inaccurate. I think that all the imam has to do is get himself and his mosque registered - just as a catholic church and priest must be registered. A quick look at the website of the General Registry Office seems to bear this out - see <A HREF="" REL="nofollow" HREF=HTTP://WWW.GRO.GOV.UK/GRO/CONTENT/MARRIAGES/WHERE-CAN-I-MARRY>http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/marriages/where-can-i-marry</A>. I'm prepared to stand corrected.<BR/><BR/>I have not seen or heard anything on this subject which I think presents a credible argument to the effect that moslems are unfairly discriminated against in this country.<BR/><BR/>Simon.Simon Platthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16196039882299400327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-83605327012852822722008-02-13T22:33:00.000+00:002008-02-13T22:33:00.000+00:00Simon,Inaccurate, where?I think you fail to grasp ...Simon,<BR/>Inaccurate, where?<BR/>I think you fail to grasp the principle of subsidiarity and arbitration, that operates in any society before things come to "the law".Fr Ray Blakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-41365529033122247382008-02-13T21:57:00.000+00:002008-02-13T21:57:00.000+00:00I'm sorry Father, but I wasn't criticising what Ro...I'm sorry Father, but I wasn't criticising what Rowan Williams said, but what you wrote. I think that it was factually inaccurate and that your analogies are flawed.<BR/><BR/>SimonSimon Platthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16196039882299400327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-27457861995550792602008-02-11T18:32:00.000+00:002008-02-11T18:32:00.000+00:00Pelerin - from what I understand there was a lot o...Pelerin - from what I understand there was a lot of direct Anglican/Protestant involvement in V11. Someone correct me if I'm wrong (Mea culpa - in advance)and/or fill us all in on the details.Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13031618301013986930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-49372617237377889722008-02-11T14:47:00.000+00:002008-02-11T14:47:00.000+00:00Following the Archbishop's controversial comments ...Following the Archbishop's controversial comments on a newspaper website, I was interested to read a comment from a reader regarding current Anglican worship.<BR/><BR/>Mention was made of an 'ugly nave altar' in a cathedral. Also 'distractions from worship such as priests facing the congregation and hand shaking.'<BR/><BR/>This all sounds rather familiar doesn't it? Did the Anglican church have their own version of Vatican II or did they copy the changes in the Catholic church and if so why?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-26064319739400832102008-02-11T13:04:00.000+00:002008-02-11T13:04:00.000+00:00To my mind there are clearly two very distinct iss...To my mind there are clearly two very distinct issues in this debate which Rowan Williams has succeeded only in merging and thus confusing. The two issues are: 1) Whether the civil law of the State should recognise the rights of religious groups (presumably those according to the Catechism that do not threaten public order or the common good) to be exempted from certain laws by reason of conscience; and <BR/>2) Whether a particular religion's laws or customs should be incorporated into the State's civil law which by extension thereby applies to all.<BR/><BR/>It does not appear to be the case that Williams is advocating 2) but as OTSOTA says his use of language has encouraged many to think that he is. Equally in order to apply 1) nothing in 2) is actually needed. At most, beyond the recognition of the "conscience exemption", all that 1) requires is the State recognising that religious groups have the right to legislate for their own members by consent and without force of civil law which they already do. In that sense there is no difference between religious groups and a golf club, except insofar as the religious group is entitled through the conscience exemption to practise what would otherwise fall foul of anti-discrimination laws. There is nothing in the status of a Catholic Marriage Tribunal or a Rabbinical court which has any force in English Law. Thus neither is anything required to give "recognition" to Sharia courts. <BR/><BR/>I agree with several of the commentators that Williams would have been much better off focusing on the increasing and creeping power of the secular State to try and control individuals' views as well as their conduct and calling on the State to enshrine protection for the consciences of the religious to practise their faith as enshrined in the Human Rights Act and the European Convention on Human Rights. It is this very "conscience exemption" which has been fundamentally undermined by the recent Sexual Discrimination legislation and which is clearly now under severe threat.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-6169092190480599172008-02-11T05:25:00.000+00:002008-02-11T05:25:00.000+00:00I think that I would have to echo what On The Side...I think that I would have to echo what On The Side of the Angels says, and, come to think of it, what Simon Platt says too.<BR/>I think that a new age of persecution is only just round the corner. Over in Germany it is forbidden to homeschool one's children and, from what I read, France is heading the same way. How much is "hate legislation" erely a pretext to stop anyone preaching CHristianity?<BR/><BR/>JARayJARayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18138004129894177863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-43275099564168727232008-02-10T22:35:00.000+00:002008-02-10T22:35:00.000+00:00Father, with the greatest respect ,what Rowan Will...Father, with the greatest respect ,<BR/>what Rowan Williams said was intentionally double-edged and obfuscatory ; naturally the way you are and the way you were educated [i.e. when theology and philosophy was transmitted with clarity and efficacy] you see benignity ; and when the potential to excuse or see the best of intentions ; you grasp at it.<BR/><BR/>These are different times, different words, different games.<BR/>I do not doubt you have read von Balthasar ; but have you read the 'explanatory' work and commentaries on his theological writing ? Aidan Nicholls and Rowan Williams write in ways which turn what was clear and precise as crystal into many layered, many veiled clouds of uncertainty and ulterior interpretations - What Rowan Williams said last week was contaminated with the 'Newspeak' of spin and incongruity - meaning all things to all men - a kaleidoscope of perspectives.<BR/><BR/>But like any fool who acts in a way too clever for his own good ; Rowan Williams has come undone ; he played with fire and got his fingers burnt - and who suffers ?<BR/>We suffer- because this has opened the floodgates of hostility and antagonism among the secular populace to any extraordinary exemptions grounded on religious reasons or sentiments.<BR/>Parliament is already laden with monsters who hate everything we stand for - look at the liberal democrat 'dr death' Evan Harris and the tyrannical secularists among the new labourites [the ex-trotskyites] - they seek to eradicate every trace of religious influence except their own 'new religion' of no religion ; and by broaching the subject in a mishandled way via Sharia ; Dr Williams has played right into their hands - screwing us up in the process....On the side of the angelshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05558623489507006790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-38609543532932067912008-02-10T21:19:00.000+00:002008-02-10T21:19:00.000+00:00The indignation of the secularist press and govern...The indignation of the secularist press and government should bring to mind Our Lord's wise maxim: render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. A secular state wants its laws to be paramount. It leads to Big Government. Instead, good government should respect the principle of subsidiarity. If members of a particular community can sort out their affairs without the intervention of the State, why shouldn't they? If the common good or the good of individuals is being threatened, those concerned will always have the State to fall back on through the civil legal system. I think Williams has brought up a very valid point (although I haven't read the lecture.)Father John Boylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10581732723849634398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-74336491544998480452008-02-10T21:14:00.000+00:002008-02-10T21:14:00.000+00:00The way this has been handled is typical of the wa...The way this has been handled is typical of the way public debate runs these days.<BR/><BR/>I have not read Rowan Williams' statement and know little about Sharia Law. I expect that goes for most of those who have rushed in to comment. But the way that commentators are only too keen to spout off in a knee-jerk reaction on the slightest pretext is why almost no subject receives the consideration it needs.Physiocrathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13682019625346594568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-74899791702280048892008-02-10T20:15:00.000+00:002008-02-10T20:15:00.000+00:00Simon, that is how it is presented but not what he...Simon, that is how it is presented but not what he said.<BR/>I am not sure he spoke the formal acceptance of Sharia law, but that is what was presented. What he spoke about was the recognition that people live their lives by it.Fr Ray Blakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-80490267601928412092008-02-10T20:12:00.000+00:002008-02-10T20:12:00.000+00:00I had no idea that Imams were not allowed to perfo...I had no idea that Imams were not allowed to perform marriages. This does not seem right in today's climate of equality.<BR/><BR/>Today's moslems are in a similar position in this country as catholics were in the 1960s. When my husband and I married in 1966 our vows before the priest were not recognized by the law of the land and we had to say our vows all over again in the sacristy to a local registrar in order to make our marriage official.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-91873229811793359982008-02-10T19:33:00.000+00:002008-02-10T19:33:00.000+00:00Dear Father,For myself I'm not interested in what ...Dear Father,<BR/><BR/>For myself I'm not interested in what Rowan Williams says, but I am very interested in the public discussion he has started.<BR/><BR/>My sense is that you're being too sanguine on this issue. I don't see the parallels in the various examples that are given of how sharia law could be somehow incorporated into British (English?) law. Marketing halal meat, for example - why would a separate legal system be required to regulate this? The Soil Association certifies organic food; failure to meet their criteria, or using their endorsement without permission, is, presumably a matter for the courts. Cowboy builders who falsely claim membership of trade organisations can be prosecuted by trading standards officials; presumably the same applies in the case of butchers falsely claiming to sell halal meat. Why would this require a separate legal system? And motorcycling sikhs aren't policed by sikh coppers or benefit from a sikh legal system do they? And as for the issue of marriage during religious ceremonies, I think you're wrong; I think that mosques and moslem religious leaders are able to be licensed on the same basis as you are and as St Mary Magdalen's is. And, yes, as faithful catholics we are increasingly penalised by English law especially on matters to do with sexual morality, the education of our children and the right to enjoy certain uses of our own property - and we don't have recourse to church courts.<BR/><BR/>I think that any formal recognition of sharia law would be widely seen as an unnecessary capitulation to an intolerant and aggressive minority and would be a disaster for the country. <BR/><BR/>It's not often I've found myself in disagreement with you, but I am this time - strongly so. At least next time I write "you're right!" you'll know I mean it!<BR/><BR/>Simon.Simon Platthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16196039882299400327noreply@blogger.com