tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post3014600098699031057..comments2023-12-16T16:17:43.886+00:00Comments on Fr Ray Blake's Blog: Westminster Cathedral's Holy Family: heretical?Fr Ray Blakehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-7452312488367238602015-09-19T23:17:24.078+01:002015-09-19T23:17:24.078+01:00As a Greek (thus, orthodox Christian) I can, beyon...As a Greek (thus, orthodox Christian) I can, beyond any doubt, assure you that this is a GENUINELY HERETICAL and BLASPHEMOUS icon! Saberdznetihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05799974164736110121noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-48811526011377626902010-01-02T15:57:13.870+00:002010-01-02T15:57:13.870+00:00Marie, I can quite agree that this is one train wr...Marie, I can quite agree that this is one train wreck of an "icon" - but I don't think it's "touchy feely" to believe that the BVM treated St. Joseph as the "hired hand."<br /><br />If Jesus cried for Lazarus, how much more would He have cried for the man who helped raise Him?<br /><br />Oh, and as to someone else who queried the "modern faces." -- Yes, quite right -- stylistically the features of an icon are to be narrow and then and rather UNreal -- in this situation to subconciously draw the thoughts "upward" to heaven.<br /><br />And icons, classically are to be rather uniform in construction so as to NOT put the personality of the artist into them. Also the artist was always to pray before each time he worked on the icon.gemoftheoceanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05521207668262592414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-83342968196779070132010-01-02T03:59:30.803+00:002010-01-02T03:59:30.803+00:00I am glad you mentioned this in your blog. I am di...I am glad you mentioned this in your blog. I am disturbed by this icon, as it lacks the historical references to traditional iconography in many ways. An icon is not supposed to show a "natural pose" but be a "door into heaven". This means that the saints and Christ are to be shown as they are, unless the icon shows a traditional event, such as the Birth of Our Lord, or the Crucifixion. The positioning of Joseph and Mary is very disturbing for those of us who have studied iconography. The colors, the stances, the embrace, are all wrong and show a deep misunderstanding of the relationships in the Holy Family. Have we all become so touchy-feely that we cannot see the error of relationship here?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-75216822845568515382010-01-02T02:41:21.194+00:002010-01-02T02:41:21.194+00:00Michael, I quite agree that in th4e law of thee ti...Michael, I quite agree that in th4e law of thee time you are right, but we Catholics simply refer to Joseph as being "foster father" in our modern light of such a relationship.<br /><br />Pablo, of course I pray for Father. All the time.<br /><br />I would ask you to consider the case of the boy Jesus staying behind in Jerusalem. Upon discovery in Beeroth (the first stop the caravan north would have made for the evening, some 8 or so miles north of the city, would it not have been natural for both Mary and Joseph to be diswrought? The scripture says as much. Would it not be natural for St. Joseph to take the BVM in his arms to comfort her? I hardly think she would have gotten a slight punch on the arm with "Carry on, old bean, chin up, stiff upper lip, girl, he'll be bound to turn up soon!"<br /><br />Imagine how frantic they'd have been going back AGAINST the traffic coming at them streaming out of the city after the week long celebration? Although doubtless Joseph was worried to death himself, would he not have been a strong should for Mary to cry on?gemoftheoceanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05521207668262592414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-37220937438586393992010-01-01T18:22:32.050+00:002010-01-01T18:22:32.050+00:00Dear Miss Gem of the Ocean,
Lets ask the good Pad...Dear Miss Gem of the Ocean,<br /><br />Lets ask the good Padre to weigh in.<br /><br />Please remember to say a Hail Mary for him.<br /><br />May God our Lord in His infinite and supreme goodness be pleased to give us His abundant grace, that we may know His most holy will, and entirely fulfill it. <br /><br />*Pablo the Mexicanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09384415590309803327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-46647828667182502172010-01-01T17:41:02.232+00:002010-01-01T17:41:02.232+00:00Good comment, gemoftheocean, but let's look at...Good comment, gemoftheocean, but let's look at this one more closely.<br /><br />I was at Mass at St Mary Magdalene's this morning to hear Father comment that the Solemnity of the Mother of God used to be the Feast of the Circumcision.<br /><br />It isn't quite correct to say that Joseph was the foster father of Jesus, because there is in Jewish law no such thing, nor any such thing as adoption, so as to filiate a child to a man for any purpose.<br /><br />Joseph was the lawful husband of the natural mother of Jesus. Jesus is a Jew because His Mother is, and He is a son of Israel from birth irrespective of subsequent circumcision.<br /><br />Joseph was a Prince of the House of David, with the faculty to transmit the regal office to his male child only.<br /><br />Jewish law presumes that a man is the natural father of his wife's child, unless there is proof of the contrary or unless the man disclaims paternity.<br /><br />The putative father is legally barred from disclaiming paternity as soon as he acts paternally toward the child, as Joseph did when naming Jesus and presenting Him for circumcision.<br /><br />So, although Joseph is not the father of Jesus in fact, he is treated as such in the eyes of the law, so that the law of inheritance can be executed in favour of Jesus, in respect of Joseph's personal property and of the Crown.Michael Petekhttp://www.crownofdavid.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-21284581349653360292010-01-01T00:16:33.950+00:002010-01-01T00:16:33.950+00:00Pablo, that's a new one on me. I think of ALL...Pablo, that's a new one on me. I think of ALL Mexicans as "Latin." i.e. "Latin America."<br /><br />I still don't know why you would think Mary and Joseph would have NO tenderness between them! You sight many familia kissings that do not involve sex -- why would it be different between them. While I do not for a moment believe that after the angel's reassurance to him that Mary was to have a son not by him, there is still room for them to show tenderness to the other. Mary to Joseph for the way he looked after the family and worked hard for them, and him to her and Jesus to form a real family.I think the relashonship was at least the sort of brother-sister affection that would be shown between a loving brother and sister. Jesus was shown examples by BOTH his parents.<br /><br />For all the due and honor given Mary, by grace of her singularly special instance of her own Immaculate Conception, do you not think that God would also be looking out for someone most extraordinary to be the foster father for his only begotten son?<br /><br />Joseph would have had some imperfections, but I have to believe that God chose Him especially.<br /><br />The easterns have a tradition that Joseph was a widower - and we don't know if that's true or not - and we do not know if it was an arranged marriage or not - but both of them had to come from very holy families.<br /><br />So, not, I don't believe for an instance that St. Joseph was just "the hired help."<br /><br />God wouldnt' do that to someone.gemoftheoceanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05521207668262592414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-58864213004630674852009-12-31T18:24:33.284+00:002009-12-31T18:24:33.284+00:00Wow Father - this thread got a bit frayed, huh? L...Wow Father - this thread got a bit frayed, huh? LOL!Terry Nelsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09819523933502820341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-6084207336512995592009-12-31T08:21:10.313+00:002009-12-31T08:21:10.313+00:00Mariana,
In defence of St Joseph's face: It h...Mariana,<br /><br />In defence of St Joseph's face: It has individuality, aliveness - which not every pious pictorial representation of him does.<br /><br />As for our artistic perceptions, yours and mine, you give it a minus and I give it a plus. But then (as the chair-bound chap with his foot up said) chacun a son gout.laicusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-3916999375700914202009-12-31T07:56:13.651+00:002009-12-31T07:56:13.651+00:00Pablo, in Judaism a man and his wife are required ...Pablo, in Judaism a man and his wife are required to have a physical relationship.<br /><br />We know only two things from Revelation. First that Mary was a virgin before, during and after the birth of Jesus. Second that Joseph was told, "Do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife."<br /><br />While we're on the subject of physical contact, why are either of the Holy Couple in physical contact with Jesus?<br /><br />He is after all a sacred Monarch. You don't touch the King.Michael Petekhttp://www.crownofdavid.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-85548840462963900822009-12-31T00:44:38.662+00:002009-12-31T00:44:38.662+00:00Is not the Icon constructed to be seen from a dist...Is not the Icon constructed to be seen from a distance?Edward P. Waltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02819348411129870835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-58237844772527044562009-12-31T00:43:25.480+00:002009-12-31T00:43:25.480+00:00Dear Miss Gem of the Ocean,
Salutations.
To answ...Dear Miss Gem of the Ocean,<br /><br />Salutations.<br /><br />To answer one of your questions, yes, Saint Joseph was the hired hand. God assigned him to care for Jesus and Mary. This did not include things normal couples would do, such as holding each other or enjoying caresses. Saint Joseph was a he-man. He is the example for all us men in the Stewardship of our families, of which we shall be held accountable by God.<br /><br />Mary is God’s Dove, Miss Ocean. Nobody lays hands on her.<br /><br />I am not a Latin. I am a Mexican. Yes, sex is defined in my family; my brothers are boys, my sisters are girls. My wife was a woman, I was the man, my mommy, God rest her soul, was a girl, my dad was a boy. <br /><br />Miss Ocean, we Mexicans kiss; starting with kissing the right hand of our Priests because that is the hand with which they hold the Blessed Sacrament. We kiss our mothers that gave us life and nourishment at their breast; we kiss our grandparents who impart to us the Faith, and Christ’s love for us.<br /><br />“..You CAN kiss someone without wanting to copulate with them, believe it or not...”<br /><br />Those thoughts have never crossed my mind.<br /><br />I agree with the Padre, the mosaic "she is no bueno."<br /><br />*Pablo the Mexicanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09384415590309803327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-73171655193524628402009-12-30T21:19:46.366+00:002009-12-30T21:19:46.366+00:00Pablo, could there be NO tenderness amongst the ho...Pablo, could there be NO tenderness amongst the holy family? What is St. Joseph, the hired hand?<br /><br />I hope Mary got the occasional kiss on the cheek from Joseph after she cooked his favorite meal now and then!<br /><br />Is everything "sexual" with Latins?<br /><br />You CAN kiss someone without wanting to copulate with them, believe it or not.gemoftheoceanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05521207668262592414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-43199792882807376572009-12-30T19:37:47.576+00:002009-12-30T19:37:47.576+00:00Dear Padre,
It doesn't take much to get your ...Dear Padre,<br /><br />It doesn't take much to get your crew up in the air, does it?<br /><br />Simply based on the fact a Padre runs past an image that creeps him out, an operation, in true Ranger Fashion, is warranted.<br /><br />An image of "Rosa d’abril, Morena de la serra..." the Virgin of Montserrat could miraculously appear,replacing the mosaic? Hey, it happened in Genazzano, Italy with Our Lady of Good Counsel.(see http://gabriella50.wordpress.com/2009/10/15/our-lady-of-good-counsel ).<br /><br />I mentioned Somalis instead of Illegal Mexican Immigrants (mojados), because I did not want to be accused by the Liberals of being racist.<br /><br />Saint Joseph respected our mother. He would not have put hands on our mother for any reason. <br /><br />*Pablo the Mexicanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09384415590309803327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-16841171068001287772009-12-30T15:15:40.636+00:002009-12-30T15:15:40.636+00:00But Pablo, what's wrong with refugees from Som...But Pablo, what's wrong with refugees from Somalia? Especially if they are being persecuted by the Muslims? They're the ones who had sense to leave everything, and GET OUT while they could -- just as the Holy Family were "refugees" in Egypt for a time!gemoftheoceanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05521207668262592414noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-70870018140457183592009-12-30T13:15:01.774+00:002009-12-30T13:15:01.774+00:00No, no, no, Pablo! Not heretical! Not heretical at...No, no, no, Pablo! Not heretical! Not heretical at all! Consider the following:<br /><br />First Lateran Council: "If anyone does not, according to the holy Fathers, confess truly and properly that holy Mary, ever virgin and immaculate, is Mother of God, since in this latter age she conceived in true reality without human seed from the Holy Spirit, God the Word Himself, who before the ages was begotten of God the Father, and <i>gave birth to Him without injury,</i> her virginity remaining equally inviolate after the birth, let him be condemned."<br /><br />A woman who has just given birth is called a <i>yoledet</i> in Hebrew and is treated as a <i>niddah</i> (menstruant) by reason of post-partum bleeding. She is considered unclean for seven days following the birth of a boy, (Leviticus 12:1-8), and during that time her husband is by tradition forbidden any physical contact with her.<br /><br />Mary being a virgin <i>in partu</i> lost no blood and therefore could not have been ritually unclean in any way.Michael Petekhttp://www.crownofdavid.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-54864225335236790742009-12-30T11:48:51.641+00:002009-12-30T11:48:51.641+00:00I've been thinking all night of whom St. Josep...I've been thinking all night of whom St. Joseph in this awful icon reminded me of - of course it's the alien in Men in Black whose head grows back : ) !Marianahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08805433224633562648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-66796797485119650872009-12-30T10:31:36.240+00:002009-12-30T10:31:36.240+00:00Pablo - as opposed to refugees from Palestine? Wo...Pablo - as opposed to refugees from Palestine? Would you prefer them to look like Italian bourgeoisie, or mid-Western farmers?<br /><br />I agree though - it's not an icon, it's a cartoon. Placed as it is in a cathedral, it seems to epitomise the whole tragedy of 20th century Roman Catholic liturgical "reform". Might appeals to its pseudo-traditional, pseudo-Byzantine stylistic assumptions represent a "heremeneutic of continuity"?Anagnostishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03706938507885553293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-81094835022672065252009-12-30T10:27:37.741+00:002009-12-30T10:27:37.741+00:001920s faces? Contemporary faces? So the human phys...1920s faces? Contemporary faces? So the human physiognomy changes from generation to generation? I presume this is some kind of souped up evolution. ;¬)Crux Fidelishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03949811845963570447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-12054607966232381942009-12-30T03:59:46.219+00:002009-12-30T03:59:46.219+00:00I think it is a heretical picture.... hands off th...I think it is a heretical picture.... hands off the Holy Mother. This picture makes the Holy Family look like refugees from Somalia.<br /><br />And a good Padre is entitled to all the good wine he likes.<br /><br />A cigar is a cigar but it takes a man to have a smoke. Especially in the Southwest United States where I live.<br /><br />*Pablo the Mexicanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09384415590309803327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-76436549940047971282009-12-30T00:50:47.076+00:002009-12-30T00:50:47.076+00:00Surely it is possible to discuss father's post...Surely it is possible to discuss father's post intelligently without launching ad hominums at him?<br /><br />"Play the ball, not the man."Norahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-20667862513877955372009-12-29T17:57:48.800+00:002009-12-29T17:57:48.800+00:00This reminds me of the van Meegeren affair. He was...This reminds me of the van Meegeren affair. He was the notorious forger of Vermeer who did his deeds in the 1920s. I went to a talk on the subject once, and the audience were astonished that his forgeries ever convinced anyone. The people in the pictures had 1920s faces! Of course, at the time, this would not have been so readily noticed.<br /><br />The faces in this mosaic are all contemporary! But the medium is antique. I have no idea if it is heretical or not but it is a horrible pastiche and one wonders how it got approved by the Historic Buildings people.<br /><br />This raises yet again the whole issue about the use of art in churches. There is something to be said for a period of restraint through fossilisation, in which the only art permitted were icons painted according to the strict orthodox rules. There is some truly horrible stuff around from the past fifty years, and nothing is more dated than last season's fashion. Perhaps it is a western weakness.Physiocrathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13682019625346594568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-78724857435374804082009-12-29T17:44:19.395+00:002009-12-29T17:44:19.395+00:00Father your observations and critique are absolute...Father your observations and critique are absolutely correct. That said - it is not an icon but a modern Western neo-Byzantine style mosaic, a decided departure from Orthodox canons. That said, Western liturgical artists/iconographers - especially Latin rite or Protestant, are not bound by Orthodox canons - unless of course they claim to be painting - writing if you insist - icons. Since there is no real Orthodox prototype for this image - it remains an original work of decorative, albeit liturgical art.<br /><br />As such, it may be credited as communicating the contemporary teaching of the Church as regards the family, as well as the importance of the father. While it appears there is some introduction of the subjective error that the Blessed Virgin and the virginal St. Joseph had some sort of romantic love - that may not have been the designer's intent. <br /><br />The otherwise sentimental gesture of St. Joseph with his arm around Our Lady, as well as his hand upon the shoulder of Christ seems to attempt to express the traditional veneration by the Church for St. Joseph as Protector of the Holy Family and of the Church.<br /><br />I have to agree with Dymphna - a cigar is just a cigar. <br /><br />Now if we were Orthodox and this was in an Orthodox church - it would be an issue.Terry Nelsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09819523933502820341noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-4408086924895476222009-12-29T16:24:36.610+00:002009-12-29T16:24:36.610+00:00Dear Crux Fidelis. Try Rudyard Kipling. Regards.Dear Crux Fidelis. Try Rudyard Kipling. Regards.Zephyrinushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01179350648709554049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-57559224751338634022009-12-29T15:59:22.570+00:002009-12-29T15:59:22.570+00:00You have to wonder what level of knowledge of ikon...You have to wonder what level of knowledge of ikons or anything else exists at the cathedral.<br />During Midnight Mass (shown on BBC TV)the Archbishop blessed non-communicants by laying his whole hand on their heads, followed by a squeeze on the arm before dipping in for the next Host. Did he forget he had purified his fingers?<br />Sorry this is off-topic but I found this just as disturbing.georgemnoreply@blogger.com