tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post5048868212423321991..comments2023-12-16T16:17:43.886+00:00Comments on Fr Ray Blake's Blog: The Hale Chalice and Pugin Bequest Saved but What is Lost?Fr Ray Blakehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comBlogger74125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-46737121906882594842012-02-16T19:11:15.675+00:002012-02-16T19:11:15.675+00:00Oh John Fisher we are all sooooo bored with this s...Oh John Fisher we are all sooooo bored with this story. Leave it in the past will you ?<br /><br />CharlieCharlienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-11091252142241006442012-02-16T15:17:10.039+00:002012-02-16T15:17:10.039+00:00http://www.charitycommission.gov.uk/Showcharity/Re...http://www.charitycommission.gov.uk/Showcharity/RegisterOfCharities/CharityWithoutPartB.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=245415&SubsidiaryNumber=0John Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04705606458418222924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-28404233043702696532012-02-16T15:11:59.055+00:002012-02-16T15:11:59.055+00:00This is why he monks tried to asset strip St Augus...This is why he monks tried to asset strip St Augustine's Abbey after they moved. Here is a statement of their assets, income and expenditure lodged with the Charities Commission 113 days late!John Fisherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04705606458418222924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-64623237831002420932012-02-14T08:47:43.023+00:002012-02-14T08:47:43.023+00:00Hopefully now we can lay this matter to rest where...Hopefully now we can lay this matter to rest where it should have been laid a while ago.Charlienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-77714776528521879612012-02-13T20:10:17.375+00:002012-02-13T20:10:17.375+00:00To Lawyeratwork,
Thank you for your detailed exege...To Lawyeratwork,<br />Thank you for your detailed exegesis of Canon Law. I would say to you brother in Christ, rather than learned friend, that there are so many technical legal implications in a case like this of which we must all be aware of.<br />I want also to say that I have NEVER as you clearly suggest put any prassure on Father Raymond Blake,infact I hold the good priest, as I hold most priest in the highest regard for the good work he does in promoting our Faith, I was simply offering Father blake what I consider to be good and sound advice.<br /><br />I return your compliments.Canonlawyer55noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-58283619663485257062012-02-13T17:41:58.858+00:002012-02-13T17:41:58.858+00:00Canon lawyer55
Thank you for your comment.
Lets ...Canon lawyer55<br /><br />Thank you for your comment.<br /><br />Lets get this absolutely right without attempting to put any pressure on the Good Fr Ray Blake, as you have done.<br /><br />Can. 1400 $2 Disputes arising from an act of administrative power, however, can be referred only to the Superior or to an administrative tribunal<br /><br />The ordinary Ecclesiastical Courts cannot hear such cases.<br />Special procedures outlined in Cann. 1732-1739 are used.<br /><br />Can. 1445 - $2 provides for cases to be heard in the Supreme Tribunal of The Apostolic Signatura.<br /><br />All evidence - internal or external is to be submitted in the case.<br /><br />The plaintiff will almost be probably heard in residence in this type of issue, Can 2856.<br /><br />You see my Learned Friend;<br />In times of old when the internet did not exist, points like this would be discussed in buildings surrounded by<br />beautiful decor of Chambers and such like and the continous smell of ground coffee. <br /><br />Now, evidence can be gained from open forums such like this and is available to most people, from even the most smallest and thinnest phones - sat on the train home.<br /><br />I would gladly and without reservation put forward in evidence the comments that have been made on this Blog site- except that I would not always be able to prove real identity. <br /><br />However, I would be able to prove concern, questions and actions and results of these actions. <br /><br />However, the real proof lies with the agreed sale and contents thereof and more importantly the withdrawal of items.<br />Also the website of the Auctioneers.<br /><br />My Learned friend would not be able to hide it, disguise it or ignore it. It happened in the public domain - world wide - for heaven and earth to read and see.<br /><br />Religious Communities who have autonomous governance will not want this new interference and investigation of their secretive rulings or Chapter decisions which are not to be discussed outside the Chapter.<br /><br />I have asked Fr Ray before, and may I repeat again please - preserve in hard copy and disc the whole matter.<br /><br />The truth is in the contents. <br />The truth from this Blog would be admitted in Canon Law whether the case be contentious or penal.<br /><br />We owe a deep gratitude to Fr Ray Blake and may I add Fr Clifton, for publicising this matter.<br /><br />2012 brings new methods of communications and new methods of investigating the Truth. That is the real world and responsibilty, power and trust comes with a price.<br /><br />My compliments to you.<br /><br />Lawyeratwork.comLawyeratwork.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-87269568147529994382012-02-13T16:16:32.739+00:002012-02-13T16:16:32.739+00:00It is very sad that these items were not offered o...It is very sad that these items were not offered on a 'private sale' basis to other communities and clergy. <br /><br />As an old boy of their school, I can attest to the fact that there were some members of the community who deeply valued their Pugin heritage. I well remember Dom Wifrid Emery, who explained sevral important items to me. Unfortunately several of the High Mass sets were cut up to make 'concelebration' sets. I remember them being used in the Abbey church, with Taizé chant!<br /><br />I agree that there was and is a lot of hostility to the EF. At the recent reunion of the old boys in Ramsgate to say farewell to the community, I was a little saddened to be asked if I was a member of the church by my former headmaster!<br /><br />I was able to celebrate Sunday Mass in the EF in the Abbey about a year ago and was shocked at how bare it was. Vestments, plate and other fittings have all gone. Surely some could have been left?<br /><br />It is also very sad that a community which had care for all the parishes in Thanet, as well as an excellent prep school, and a decent secondary school has come to this. <br /><br />It is also very sad to visit the old school buildings in Westgate ( especially the fine chapel) which are used for fake religious ceremonies ( especially marriages). <br /><br />Nevertheless we can only pray for them.Canon William Hudsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06369991286899266007noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-1991991567876252822012-02-13T14:42:59.699+00:002012-02-13T14:42:59.699+00:00It may be that some of the contributors have been ...It may be that some of the contributors have been intemperate - or honest in showing the depth of their feelings - but it may be best to do what the New Kiturgical Movement did a couple of years ago when there was another very heated exchange about Ramsgate Abbey: NLM removed all the posts and closed the article to further postings.pacificusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-61606603958839851272012-02-13T14:22:43.910+00:002012-02-13T14:22:43.910+00:00I don't know much about law, canon or civil, b...I don't know much about law, canon or civil, but what the canonlawyer guy says makes a lot of sense to me. If this happened on civi-street and all of this nasty publicity was posted on Blogs and in the Catholic press and local press, how could those monks get a fair trial ?<br /><br />Charlie.Charlienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-14042759202716761572012-02-13T13:19:59.440+00:002012-02-13T13:19:59.440+00:00Yes Mr. Belord I would like to comment on your rem...Yes Mr. Belord I would like to comment on your remarks. If this case for disposal of ecclesiastical items was to become Canonical then there would be more than one judge involved. In fact if the matter went all the way to the highest court in the Church, the Apostolic Signatura,which it could do if the Abbot and Community appeal any local judgement, there would be several ecclesial judges to decide in whose favour the case should go.<br />I take you point about the judge in civil law not reading this blog, but how many others have done thus arrousing preconceived opinions of the Abbot and his Community and their right to a fair trial. Remember that many remarks made here are anything but flattering towards the Abbot and Community, in fact, as another blogger has said, some verge on defamation. I can tell you without doubt that if Fr. Blake seeks Canonical advice re this matter the Canon Lawyer for the Abbot and Community will sight these adverse remarks as being prejudicial to a fair outcome and judgment. That is the precise reason why I offer Fr. Raymond Blake this advice.<br /><br />Good wishes.<br /><br />Canonlawyer55.Canonlawyer55noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-79706235879312881962012-02-13T10:35:48.669+00:002012-02-13T10:35:48.669+00:00I am not an expert in Canon Law but I do wonder ab...I am not an expert in Canon Law but I do wonder about what Canonlawyer has said. If we were talking about English law an action against the Abbot would surely be a civil action rather than a criminal one. Presumably in Canon law in such a case there is no jury who would be prejudiced by unrestrained press reporting and this would be tried by a judge alone. I would have thought that a judge acting alone would be quite capable of excluding extraneous prejudicial material from his mind when judging the issue and indeed I would be surprised if he would read this blog. He would just judge on the basis of the evidence presented to him in court. There is a balance to be sought in this as if you go too far one way no crime or civil tort would ever get reported before a trial. Perhaps Canon Lawyer would like to explain the position in Canon Law further on this subject.Nicolas Bellordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08063019108964247676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-11769236556411183072012-02-13T09:31:31.072+00:002012-02-13T09:31:31.072+00:00Having read all of the comments on this blog I sus...Having read all of the comments on this blog I suspect that due to the lack of comment by Fr. Raymond Blake himself and the comment by Father Michael Clifton that there are ongoing attempts to bring a case ( canonically ) against this community of Religious, the Father Abbot in perticular, although one suspects that he would only have acted with the approval of his whole community. I hope that this is not the case but if it is then Father Blake must immediately stop others commenting on this matter on HIS blog as this will be seen as him encouraging others to pre-judge the situation and will ( not may but will ) jeopardize any case brought.<br /><br />Canonlawyer55Canonlawyer55noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-87775069535857756362012-02-12T23:40:46.176+00:002012-02-12T23:40:46.176+00:00I owe a lot to the late Abbot Thatcher of Ramsgate...I owe a lot to the late Abbot Thatcher of Ramsgate - a man who would not have approved of "stark" liturgies. He was kindly in his person but prelatical in the exercise of his office. The great sadness of his successors is their failure to appreciate and build on the Pugin legacy. After the Landmark restoration of the Grange it was still a nightmare to gain access to the church. However we now have the Friends of St Augustine's and a priest in Fr. Holden who seems to be focused on the treasure he has. He seems positive and without recrimination or backward glances - let's get behind him.vetusta ecclesiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09454059029260192711noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-48551198720771082422012-02-12T21:33:38.630+00:002012-02-12T21:33:38.630+00:00Thank you all the commenters for an interesting di...Thank you all the commenters for an interesting discussion especially Nicholas with his well informed points. However I do not have much confidence in civil law to help here. I think that The Tablet is nominally a Catholic charity. Readers of this blog will be able to decide how truly Catholic it really is.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09036933832060349206noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-20317553992165680602012-02-12T20:20:58.349+00:002012-02-12T20:20:58.349+00:00Dear Father Matthew,
I have absolutely no problem...Dear Father Matthew,<br /><br />I have absolutely no problem with what you did in Peru in selling items to raise money for the poor and I am sure you did wonderful work in the care of souls.<br /><br /> I too have seen dire poverty in Argentina, Mexico and Portugal - the latter was a third world country 25 years ago. What I found paradoxical is the way the poor will spend money on religious things such as ornaments and flowers because they wanted to get in touch with the supernatural. I saw this particularly on a national feast day at the shrine of Our Lady of Guadeloupe. In Portugal I have visited very poor mountain villages with very poor living conditions where the locals welcome you and insist on you being shown their church which is absolutely spick and span and tendered with enormous love by the villagers. I have heard of this being disapproved of as a kind of religiosity that is outdated. I am not so sure. <br /><br />One feature of these churches, in Portugal, is that usually there is an income and expenditure account pinned up for all to see - and these accounts get read out at Mass so people can judge the needs of the clergy. I have never seen such financial transparency in this country.<br /><br />You go on to quote from the New Testament about what Christ said. I am not sure that my interpretation of "the Woman taken in Adultery" is the correct one but it seems to me it rather revolves around the meaning of the words "judge" and "condemn". In speaking to her Christ in no way excused her behaviour when he said "sin no more". Was that not a judgement on her behaviour? He also said "let he who is without sin be the first to cast a stone". It always seems to me that he was bit rash in inviting her stoning as there could well have been someone who thought he was without sin. But presumably he could see into their hearts and knew there was no such person present. But I would not suggest that it was a practice to follow if one is not Christ!<br /><br />I would therefore like to make a distinction between judging someone as having done wrong and condemning them to a punishment. You say it is imperative that we do not start judging one another. I wonder whether you meant "judging" in the sense I have suggested? Would that be a proper response to an accusation of child abuse?<br /><br />I therefore support George and Arturo and thank Peter John in respect of their comments.<br /><br />I also thank Sally for recounting the undoubted positive side of this community although I would hope that they did not have the motive of getting back on the Diocese that she suggests in her last sentence! I certainly would not attack her as Jonathan suggests she might be.<br /><br />Charlie: describing a comment as tosh and stupid gets us nowhere.<br /><br />Lastly I might say I was at prep school at Worth (Benedictines) and remember the excellent religious education and inspiring liturgy which has stayed with me all my life. But that was in the 1940s!Nicolas Bellordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08063019108964247676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-67418794412577430632012-02-12T20:01:11.302+00:002012-02-12T20:01:11.302+00:00Arturo,
Are you seriouly asking us to believe tha...Arturo,<br /><br />Are you seriouly asking us to believe that Diocesan bishops and priests are so transparent in their dealings and religious communities are not. Give us a break, Pleeeeze. Many diocesan bishops don't even know how to spell 'transparency'.<br /><br />Charlie.Charlienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-2271477517886862602012-02-12T19:33:44.849+00:002012-02-12T19:33:44.849+00:00Charlie,
Are you suggesting that Ealing, Downside ...Charlie,<br />Are you suggesting that Ealing, Downside and Ampleforth have not had serious problems with sexual abuse? <br />The inquiries on all these Benedictine schools have suggested the root of the problem is their past failure to allow outside scrutiny. Fortunately they have addressed this issue as far their schools are concerned but not there dealings in other areas.<br /><br />In a secular parish would fundraising take place and people not know where the money went?<br />And when the Church, a national treasure was falling down would they not get a group of lay experts involved to help?<br /><br />I suggest the problems come from their monastic charism (monachus = alone)Arturonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-27158565863502584192012-02-12T18:55:05.698+00:002012-02-12T18:55:05.698+00:00If I can comment on two different approaches, that...If I can comment on two different approaches, that of Nicolas Bellord and Fr Matthew. Nicolas is well known and should be given the credit for defending right Catholic action for example when the Hospital of St John and Elizabeth was clearly involved in un-Catholic activities or advice. It took a layman to remind the hospital trustees that they were a Catholic foundation. Here you have a legal trust set up 150 years ago to which gifts were added, and therefore it is literally a breach of trust to allow sacred items to be sold and possibly used for profane purposes. It is ironic that a neighbouring parish to mine also in Southwark is currently raising funds to buy new vestments and a chalice, when several were clearly surplus at Ramsgate. <br />Fr Matthew's point is an old one, but no one is suggesting that the Ramsgate monks are or were living in dire poverty, and he says himself that in Peru they scrupulously followed legal requirements. The criticism at Ramsgate centres on the fact that there have been protests and queries for some weeks, but the Abbot apparently did not want to know, and went ahead even though some of his fellow Benedictines at Farnborough were concerned. What he should have done was to postpone the sale, and offer the sacred items to either fellow religious or the Diocese at a reasonable price, assuming they were the monks' freely to sell. Now is too late as many of the items will in practice be irrecoverable, although if the church trustees were minded to they might still have remedies in Equity to trace the items and recover them. All very sad and I am afraid another example of the Benedictine Order in this country failing to live up to its own historic standards, which is probably why it is in danger of dying out here. That is not to ignore the kindness I personally have received from individual monks at Quarr (including the famous Father Joe)and Buckfast.Peter Johnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-44250723086415419552012-02-12T18:53:42.925+00:002012-02-12T18:53:42.925+00:00Arturo,
What a load of tosh. Grasp the facts of t...Arturo,<br /><br />What a load of tosh. Grasp the facts of the situation before you make stupid and general comments!<br /><br />Charlie.Charlienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-495634540531046982012-02-12T18:49:39.315+00:002012-02-12T18:49:39.315+00:00Sally,
What a breath of fresh air ! Thank you for ...Sally,<br />What a breath of fresh air ! Thank you for what you said and saying it in the context of your 'statement'. People do tend to forget the good done and focus on the negative, that is because they are full of negativity themselves. You have obvioulsly had experience of this community in a positive way and I thank you for sharing that with us. Be prepared to be attacked by others for what you have said, no one these days likes the truth to be told! I agree with you, to address the Abbot by his first name is disrespectful to say the least,what would the ultra traditionalists on this blog say if you started calling Cardinals and Archishop's Cormac, Vincent and Peter? they would find that offensive. I also agree with Chris when he said that a comment saying that " I hope Paulines etc" is bordering on the defamatory. Another point to make is Georges reply to Father Matthew, he talks about the 'Opus Dei' surely the Opus Dei is feeding the hungry, clothing the naked etc.<br /><br />Jonathan.Jonathannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-71604836348315848502012-02-12T18:43:41.328+00:002012-02-12T18:43:41.328+00:00Ms Winnemucca,
Religious Communities are problemat...Ms Winnemucca,<br />Religious Communities are problematic, they are by nature secretive, and have their own mores and ways of thinking.<br />In order to preserve their community they reject outside scrutiny. Hence this auction, and the inept way it was handled, and unfortunately hence sexual scandals which seem to predominantly affect religious communities.<br /><br />Hence your statement, no-one knows where the money goes and no-one knew the mess they were in. It seems very sad that such a community felt unable to disclose their problems to the wider Catholic community.Arturonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-25894936127245609392012-02-12T16:50:28.424+00:002012-02-12T16:50:28.424+00:00I would just like to add that the monks were proba...I would just like to add that the monks were probably pleased to see the back of "Thanet". How arrogant to call Abbot Paulinus plain Paulinus.sally winnemuccanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-71725571751060046382012-02-12T16:43:11.402+00:002012-02-12T16:43:11.402+00:00All this vilification of the monks. A few facts:
...All this vilification of the monks. A few facts:<br /><br />The monks provided hot soup, bread, tea and coffee to any wayfarer who knocked at their door, right up until they left Ramsgate. I have come across many ex wayfarers who have been full of gratitude for their kindness.<br /><br />The monastery was purpose built over 150 years ago and could not have been a very comfortable place, especially for the several elderly members of the community. How much would a leaky roof cost to be fixed? £60,000. The repair of a broken heating system? £60,000. The monks did install solar panels in an attempt to save on heating bills but the system broke and the company who had installed them had gone into liquidation. It cannot have been easy to rattle around in an enormous creaky building, built for a community of 40 and down to about a dozen in recent years.<br /><br />Parishioners have felt that the Diocese was more than happy when the monks ran parishes and schools in the past but didn't seem to offer much in the way of help when they needed it. Father Benedict, the PP of St. Augustine's, was in poor health and yet he ran a very busy parish, dashing from church to church, hospital visits etc. etc. Other monks had other duties, looking after their elderly, gardening, cooking, guest rooms etc. etc. and so they were stretched to the limit. The parishioners raised a lot of money at bazaars and fetes but how much of it went to the monks and how much to the Diocese? Would like a Freedom of Info call on that one.<br /><br />The saddest of all in this sorry tale is that the monks did not let their parishioners know how much trouble they were in, both financially and in manpower. Had the town of Ramsgate known (let alone the parishioners) there would most certainly have been a concerted effort to raise funds and bring the monastery into the 21st century.<br /><br />Yes one could shake them for their naivity in selling off the silver, whether theirs or not, but for what they suffered in the last few years at Ramsgate, after everything they contributed to the area over the years they deserve a break. If the Diocese didn't help them when they needed it, then they probably took the silver in payment. Who knows?Sally Winnemuccanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-81069538492442203192012-02-12T14:35:56.464+00:002012-02-12T14:35:56.464+00:00George,
What was sold in Peru was ours to sell, w...George,<br /><br />What was sold in Peru was ours to sell, we followed every precept of the Law of the Church in detail. The decision was made based on the fact that we felt that we could not adore the Lord's Table with gold and silver while his people were dying of hunger. <br />I understand fully what you say about trust and that is of the greatest importance. George, it is imperative that we do not start judging one another, that only leads to suspicious minds. If you, and others, must attack this community for what they have done then please do so with an element of charity, much of what has been written is lacking in such.<br />The Abbot and community probably wish that they had done things differently and that they could turn the clock back, but they can't. Did not Our Lord say do not condemn and you will not be condemned.<br />Bless you.<br />Fr. M.Father Matthewnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-51732004153266564352012-02-12T13:44:27.399+00:002012-02-12T13:44:27.399+00:00Hi all,
Well said, Fr. Matthew! Anybody would ha...Hi all,<br /><br />Well said, Fr. Matthew! Anybody would have thought that all of us commenting on here were saints, guaranteed a place in heaven!<br /><br />Fr. Matthew's community had to convert certain items into capital so as to tend to the materially poor and hungry, but his situation is still comparable to the one we have here: here, the monks need funds in order to continue their prayer that the world is freed from its spiritual poverty, or perhaps I should actually say, from the bondage of sin.<br /><br />While we're at it, what undermines the Church's credibility the most is the public manner in which a group of religious, whose work is fundamental to the Church's very existence, has been mauled by certain posters.<br /><br />Some of the comments have been extremely cruel and borderline-defamatory. One comment that 'I just hope Paulinus enjoys spending the cash he gained' seems to have negative undertones; and I'm not sure what 'I cannot imagine that they could have done what they have if they were obedient to the Church's authority and teachings, and availed of the sacrament of confession' is designed to imply.<br /><br />Best regards,<br />ChrisChrisnoreply@blogger.com