tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post5109776531140459126..comments2023-12-16T16:17:43.886+00:00Comments on Fr Ray Blake's Blog: Through Williamson to EcumenismFr Ray Blakehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-26792774143724652742009-07-14T15:43:16.564+01:002009-07-14T15:43:16.564+01:00he might not be altogether objective when talking ...<i>he might not be altogether objective when talking of Shylock or Fagin.</i><br /><br />LOL<br /><br /><i>Perhaps Williamson's eminence in his chosen group is entirely owing to the flatness of the surrounding country.</i><br /><br />Inevitably.Anagnostishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03706938507885553293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-81336547475793764102009-07-14T14:38:53.862+01:002009-07-14T14:38:53.862+01:00Sadie -Who says that a Cambridge background means ...Sadie -Who says that a Cambridge background means that someone is a great intellectual? Williamson has a first degree in English Literature, he did not go beyond that. One might for example listen to him with some respect on say Shakespeare or Dickens - except that he might not be altogether objective when talking of Shylock or Fagin.<br /><br />There are however several noted Catholic intellectuals from Cambridge, all of whom did PhD's there, Scarisbrick, Duffy, Norman, and Gilley come to mind. <br /><br />Perhaps Williamson's eminence in his chosen group is entirely owing to the flatness of the surrounding country.Independentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-23346034946798961112009-07-13T23:33:29.900+01:002009-07-13T23:33:29.900+01:00Just finished listening. He totally rejects sedeva...Just finished listening. He totally rejects sedevacantism.<br /><br />He doesn't strike me as a great intellectual despite his Cambridge background.<br /><br />What is he is good on is his own liberal, protestant, pre-60's background and education.Sadie Vacantisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04823532366874114366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-63705499986011077072009-07-13T22:24:44.447+01:002009-07-13T22:24:44.447+01:00"the reconcilliation of the SSPX progresses t..."the reconcilliation of the SSPX progresses to a new stage with the incorporation of Ecclesia Dei into the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith"<br /><br />Father, who are you kidding?Sadie Vacantisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04823532366874114366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-29049065790923283252009-07-13T07:55:17.008+01:002009-07-13T07:55:17.008+01:00Independent
Your post is very interesting, and th...Independent<br /><br />Your post is very interesting, and the 'defects' you outline might certainly be useful - to Roman Catholics seeking a legal "get out"! From the point of view of Orthodoxy, they're quite irrelevant.Anagnostishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03706938507885553293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-33095202746568801372009-07-12T23:01:31.519+01:002009-07-12T23:01:31.519+01:00The Orthodox probably make regarding Vatican I man...The Orthodox probably make regarding Vatican I many similar points which extreme members of the SSPX make about Vatican II. They may argue that many of the bishops present were paid for by the Pope, that many of those present left early rather than vote, that it was not unanimous, that it never actually ended as it was prorogued, that its results were never formally promulgated. They might note that Newman was doubtful about it at first but judged its general acceptance to be the work of the Holy Spirit, and that the Almighty had over-ruled the extremists who dominated the media.<br /><br />In discussions with the East, as Fr Blake rightly observes ,Trent also will need to be examined. Please correct me if I am wrong but both these Councils seem to be much quoted but little studied.Independentnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-55116555143982556112009-07-12T14:48:16.845+01:002009-07-12T14:48:16.845+01:00Anon. good point, make it again but supply a name....Anon. good point, make it again but supply a name.<br />I aways reject anon commsFr Ray Blakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-7830354606502562482009-07-12T10:47:20.832+01:002009-07-12T10:47:20.832+01:00"...I would say that Orthodox who are aware o..."...I would say that Orthodox who are aware of such things as the Roman Catholic Church's "liturgical crisis" would tend to recognise it as an outcome of serious, deep-rooted issues in theology and ecclesiology, long pre-dating Vatican II."<br /><br />Quite so. The huge problem is that a whole mentality has been deliberately cultivated which blames Vatican II for the malaise.<br /><br />I am afraid I cannot be optimistic about the future. I had better brush up on my Slavonic I think...old believernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-47256403732363594712009-07-12T08:14:57.257+01:002009-07-12T08:14:57.257+01:00He did talk allot about the relationship between t...He did talk allot about the relationship between the SSPX and the SSPV, which was interesting.beckethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00313592795305384910noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-83589780593164983442009-07-12T05:24:23.678+01:002009-07-12T05:24:23.678+01:00Patricius
While "looking down one's nose...Patricius<br /><br />While "looking down one's nose" is perhaps not the most attractive or constructive of attitudes, I would say that Orthodox who are aware of such things as the Roman Catholic Church's "liturgical crisis" would tend to recognise it as an outcome of serious, deep-rooted issues in theology and ecclesiology, long pre-dating Vatican II.Anagnostishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03706938507885553293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-36252599415336779332009-07-12T00:06:51.481+01:002009-07-12T00:06:51.481+01:00The reconciliation of the SSPX is critical for the...The reconciliation of the SSPX is critical for the Unity of the Church (doctrinally as well as liturgically). I know of many Orthodox who looks down their noses (quite rightly, I think) at our liturgical crisis; and so in this dimension, the reconciliation has important consequences. Another thing is numbers - that may or may not sound mercenary, but the SSPX are very popular, especially in France. Their reconciliation will undoubtedly strengthen the Church.Patrick Sheridanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07995907911415177074noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-73243989134836020352009-07-11T22:06:00.638+01:002009-07-11T22:06:00.638+01:00Dear Father
Please forgive me.
If you'll pe...Dear Father<br /><br />Please forgive me. <br /><br />If you'll permit me to rephrase: Orthodox theology and ecclesiology sees no significant distinction between SSPX-line "Traditionalism" and the attenuations of the "post-conciliar" mainstream. Benedict XVI, for whom I have nothing but admiration, is possibly the most "Orthodox" Pope of modern times, insofar as he is deep in the Greek Fathers and frequently cites them so as to let them speak for themselves; but <i>Pastor Aeternus</i> remains an immoveable obstacle (among several others), which no amount of "elegance" or regard for "plurality" can circumvent.Anagnostishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03706938507885553293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-34095764849825350282009-07-11T21:45:56.135+01:002009-07-11T21:45:56.135+01:00Ben,
I hope forgive me but I am sure you will und...Ben, <br />I hope forgive me but I am sure you will understand my taking offence at your last and not publishing it.Fr Ray Blakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-42860110640412379792009-07-11T19:56:15.503+01:002009-07-11T19:56:15.503+01:00"What happens here will be watched closely by..."What happens here will be watched closely by the Eastern Churches..."<br /><br />I think that there is a great deal of interest in how old Rome deals with plurallity at moment. <br /><br />Moretben, not all Orthodox are closed to coming closer to Rome but we are suspicious of being swallowed up her. <br />From the point of view of doctrine it will be interesting to see how she will backtrack from what she has been teaching for the last 40 years, if she can do that elegantly, then we will see...Chrysonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-69196867259753278322009-07-11T18:42:51.094+01:002009-07-11T18:42:51.094+01:00What happens here will be watched closely by the E...<i>What happens here will be watched closely by the Eastern Churches...</i><br /><br />I'm sorry to disappoint you Father, but apart from the handful of hierarchs whose unenviable extra-mural duties include making such things their business, relations between Rome and the SSPX, or Rome and the Particular Baptists, doesn't register on the radar.Anagnostishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03706938507885553293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-18777824910584902022009-07-11T17:20:49.391+01:002009-07-11T17:20:49.391+01:00I think you're quite right, father. I was goin...I think you're quite right, father. I was going to do a post of my own saying pretty much this - no need now!!<br /><br />I think prayers will resolve a great many of ills - but perhaps (probably?) not in our own time.Athanasiushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01711745498119959716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-50825053470636704802009-07-11T15:25:45.581+01:002009-07-11T15:25:45.581+01:00I think you are right here, Father. However, I al...I think you are right here, Father. However, I also think that should the SSPX be reconciled to Rome, a fraction of the SSPX, probably led by +Williamson, will veer off into outright sede vacantism.<br /><br />I think a similar dynamic will play out in terms of the TAC and Byzantine Orthodoxy, if and when it comes to full reconciliation with Rome. Attitudes within Byzantine Orthodoxy range from seeing Rome as a "sister Church" to regarding the Pope as "antichrist" and there is a similar range of views within the TAC, although not as extreme, I don't think, in the anti-Rome direction.FrGregACCAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00368463715994694203noreply@blogger.com