tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post5301834567637706385..comments2023-12-16T16:17:43.886+00:00Comments on Fr Ray Blake's Blog: Pope says, Jesus 'pretends'Fr Ray Blakehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-431147244901892062014-01-03T04:08:21.374+00:002014-01-03T04:08:21.374+00:00Along the lines of what Pelerin has done, I keep t...Along the lines of what Pelerin has done, I keep the English word to observe it, and per the ensuing etymology (pre-, before; tend, tendere, to stretch) the Pope isn't wrong.<br /><br />Granted, the reality to this appearance is that he used its meaning in a different way...but I recall a post cited recently in a certain blog, the memory of which now makes me think - keeping all respect, Father - that you fear for <b><i>multivolent signification</i></b>.<br /><br />Yet ours should be the hope that the word choice of the Holy Father was made according to the demand that "we must love and respect and serve all men and women, even the lowest in society"; and these, to return to my point, are quite certainly unaware of what "pretending" really means.<br /><br />I sympathise with all who took umbrage to this matter, but I say: if salt has been acclaimed by the Lord, of all (people), a pinch of it would have served well here.Disciplehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13674123955738617768noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-52114141587847941722013-12-08T20:58:48.561+00:002013-12-08T20:58:48.561+00:00Pelerin may be right. But the Holy Father's c...Pelerin may be right. But the Holy Father's comment is still hard to interpret. Does it mean that in the Gospels, Our Lord never gets angry? If it does mean that, it's hard to believe that Christ only pretended to be that way when he overturned the tables in the temple.Billhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10309521075213048523noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-26716820390805639632013-12-07T23:59:36.463+00:002013-12-07T23:59:36.463+00:00If the translation is correct, then this is at lea...If the translation is correct, then this is at least an erroneous assertion tending towards heresy: the heresy which denies the absolute holiness of the human soul of Christ - because of the hypostatic union with the Person of the Word - as well as his freedom from ignorance and error, (pretending to be angry is would be a type of "officious lie" on the part of Our Lord) which is at least "theologically certain," as the Catholic theologians say. [saltem thelogicae certa, quam dicuunt theologicii catholicii...]Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17120869752367971942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-49358514533946761822013-12-06T22:43:45.402+00:002013-12-06T22:43:45.402+00:00Nestorianism?
Maybe, we all tend unconsciously to ...Nestorianism?<br />Maybe, we all tend unconsciously to one particular heresy or other.<br />I think it is really a particularly Jesuit thing about seeing no difficulty with 'prevarication', mixed with a rather personalised exegesis and a desire to say something 'original' when possibly one should just shut up.Fr Ray Blakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-78458389663555640442013-12-06T10:15:39.356+00:002013-12-06T10:15:39.356+00:00Dear Father Blake,
I went to bed last night real...Dear Father Blake, <br /><br />I went to bed last night really disturbed by this.<br /><br />I woke up feeling disturbed, fearing that some kind of latent Nestorianism was here.<br /><br />My gut feeling is that if this is a true report, latent Nestorianism is just as important as the issue of feigning.<br /><br />But I wonder if I am over-reacting. <br /><br />Some are claiming that the comment can be restricted solely to the Gospel report of Emmaus and not the Gospel as a whole ...<br /><br />That is a response I got when I posted this on Fisheaters last night, disturbed as I say.<br /><br />Link here if you are interested ...<br /><br />http://catholicforum.fisheaters.com/index.php/topic,3462432.0.html<br /><br /><br />I don't easily have time right now to go through all this - questions like: What is happening with the deletion of the word "not"? <br /><br />Is this restricted to Emmaus?<br /><br />Am I leaping to conclusions with latent Nestorianism?<br /><br />But I am both troubled and am grateful to you and would be very grateful if you had time to either comment further or even do a new blog on your take on this several days later.<br /><br />I really can't tell if it's either a <br /><br />a) a storm in a tea-cup<br /><br />b) a real indication of a kind of New Agey - Nestorianism that really rings alarm bells for me.<br /><br />So if you have time, I would be most grateful for your updated take on this.<br />Roger Buckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10722568291805894518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-36418063787608209512013-12-05T23:53:57.591+00:002013-12-05T23:53:57.591+00:00I pray this is botched reporting ...
There so man...I pray this is botched reporting ...<br /><br />There so many issues here, including Our Lord's humanity.<br /><br />Pope Pius XII's last encyclical on the Sacred Heart Haurietas Aquas most instructive here ...<br /><br />Lord have mercy, let this be botched reporting ...Roger Buckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10722568291805894518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-47417136096479167612013-12-03T21:31:45.802+00:002013-12-03T21:31:45.802+00:00Pelerin wrote: 'In the Gospel Jesus is not ang...Pelerin wrote: 'In the Gospel Jesus is not angry but he does seem to be (il faisait semblant) when His disciples are not understanding Him.'<br /><br />This does not have the same implications as 'pretend'. Could not this just be another case of mistranslation?"<br /><br />This is wrong. The French phrase means 'pretend': synonyms feindre (feign) and simuler (simulate) so says Le Petit Larousse.<br /><br />But even the Italian version is not Pope Francis very words. It has been summarised and tidied upJoseph Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06587987442560784792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-83471532155593628282013-12-03T18:32:26.135+00:002013-12-03T18:32:26.135+00:00Whatever the Pope really said on this occasion, wh...Whatever the Pope really said on this occasion, what wearies me is the constant need to suggest that he's been mistranslated, taken out of context, the journalist he was speaking to dozed off and/or made it up, Italian's not his first language,oh well, he's speaking off the cuff.. <br />Has there been a pope in modern times (indeed ever) so irritatingly inept at communicating? Verbally at least.Celiahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06604937234890307888noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-14447156472376363282013-12-03T17:47:15.947+00:002013-12-03T17:47:15.947+00:00As I have always said before, the trouble starts w...As I have always said before, the trouble starts when he opens his mouth.<br />If he were the catechesis teacher in a school where my children are enrolled, I would pull them out of it and look for another school.<br />This pope proves himself the best pope the atheists and non-Catholics ever had.azul condorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15618624095836943350noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-42068558437658063892013-12-03T17:10:16.648+00:002013-12-03T17:10:16.648+00:00According to the Vatican news site, the Holy Fathe...According to the Vatican news site, the Holy Father said, " Nel Vangelo, Gesù non si arrabbia, ma fa finta quando i discepoli non capivano le cose." My translation: "In the Gospel, Jesus did not become angry, but pretended to (do so) when the disciples did not inderstand things." The NOT is present in the original Italian, and its removal from the web site translation makes a nonsense of his text.Alanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16365402242052425654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-26474839195686489722013-12-03T16:43:13.956+00:002013-12-03T16:43:13.956+00:00With or without "not"? Welcome in Absurd...With or without "not"? Welcome in Absurdistan:<br /><br />with "not"<br />December 03, 2013, 17:33:<br /><br />“In the Gospel, Jesus does not become angry, but pretends to when the disciples do not understand him. At Emmaus he says: ‘How foolish and slow of heart’. ‘How foolish and slow of heart’… He who does not understand the things of God is such a person. <br /><br />Text from page http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2013/11/29/pope:_intelligence_is_a_gift/en1-751058 <br />of the Vatican Radio website <br /><br />without "not"<br />December 03, 2013, 17:38<br />The Pope said that, in order to understand the signs of the times, a Christian must think not only with his head, but also with his heart and spirit. Otherwise, he cannot understand the “way of God in history”:“In the Gospel, Jesus does become angry, but pretends to when the disciples do not understand him. At Emmaus he says: ‘How foolish and slow of heart’. ‘How foolish and slow of heart’… He who does not understand the things of God is such a person. <br /><br />http://www.news.va/en/news/pope-intelligence-is-a-giftMartina Katholikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07891671172843888683noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-45907389942050704782013-12-03T15:49:53.487+00:002013-12-03T15:49:53.487+00:00And the hits just keep on coming. This one is a b...And the hits just keep on coming. This one is a biggie. And I don't think this is a translation problem, as I don't think translations have been the problem for any of his doozies. He talks off the top of his head, whatever comes to his mind, and I have no doubt that he means what he says, unfortunately. Day by day I wonder how outrageous it's going to get. Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08481730297658525937noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-38698521881717604972013-12-03T15:47:25.625+00:002013-12-03T15:47:25.625+00:00Is an (informal) sermon guaranteed to be free from...Is an (informal) sermon guaranteed to be free from error? I'm inclined to think that it is not the highest exercise of the magisterium, and therefore may not be. It is just possible that one might hear one's parish priest (or bishop?) make a mistake occasionally in that context (!).RJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13871618901190898384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-62246586995433330112013-12-03T15:29:01.606+00:002013-12-03T15:29:01.606+00:00Sometimes, a teacher can raise his voice, allowing...Sometimes, a teacher can raise his voice, allowing pupils to think he is angry, though he is not. It helps in controlling the mob.<br /><br />Further to what you said, Father ('the implication is that the plain meaning of scripture is not readily available to the ordinary reader or hearer'). I don't think we have to assume that Scripture should always be easy to understand. Clearly, it is not always so. Some passages are very unclear and/or have many layers of meaning, and sometimes these require study.RJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13871618901190898384noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-68365345322117903652013-12-03T14:33:51.542+00:002013-12-03T14:33:51.542+00:00I too was troubled by the Pope's words yet I n... I too was troubled by the Pope's words yet I noticed that there was barely any mention of it anyplace else even in other Conservative Catholic Blogs. It may be possible he did not say that but if he did well then we do have a Mess on our hands. This man is NOT the great speaker the last Pope was because Benedict was a Biblical Scholar so his whole theology was Biblical.Katalinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13022632010831557996noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-14170506519569340512013-12-03T13:55:01.880+00:002013-12-03T13:55:01.880+00:00Father:
Then what was on the Vatican Radio site h...Father:<br /><br />Then what was on the Vatican Radio site has now been changed. If you follow your own link you will now see that the passage states;<br /><br />"In the Gospel, Jesus does become angry...."<br /><br />The word "not" is clearly absent.kiwiinamericahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03584836925358624544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-25463385391637443862013-12-03T13:52:05.825+00:002013-12-03T13:52:05.825+00:00I clearly recall the original text as "In the...<br />I clearly recall the original text as "In the Gospel Jesus is not angry"<br /><br />It would appear the text on the website has been changed.Pétrushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17539025631125425710noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-11860621614348378872013-12-03T12:20:58.346+00:002013-12-03T12:20:58.346+00:00Alfred,
I think your comment is longer than the in...Alfred,<br />I think your comment is longer than the initial post therefore I have not published it!<br /><br />IF this is what the Pope said, interesting Vatican Radio has subsequently added a 'not', VR has a semi-official role in publishing the Pope's Magisterium.<br /><br />It is something new and therefore significant in our understanding of Biblical interpretation, the ramifications are deep and worth discussing on the level of Biblical interpretation alone.<br /><br />However it also has ramifications for personal morality, if the Pope sees it possible for Jesus to 'pretend' then we should expect him to consider it licit for himself and others to do so, is that not valid matter for discussion?<br />Fr Ray Blakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-41384882311758937272013-12-03T11:48:41.384+00:002013-12-03T11:48:41.384+00:00Whatever happened to the "not" in the En...Whatever happened to the "not" in the English version, it's clearly there in the Italian - and the sentence would make little sense without it.Mr Grumpyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05317128956060393033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-45854640107083920232013-12-03T11:36:19.892+00:002013-12-03T11:36:19.892+00:00Let us support each other in these times of trial ...Let us support each other in these times of trial and tribulation. Lyndahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01714204002726632689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-40459478179833626652013-12-03T10:11:55.604+00:002013-12-03T10:11:55.604+00:00Harrap's Standard French and English Dictionar...Harrap's Standard French and English Dictionary gives the translation of "faire semblant" as "to feign, pretend, make believe, to be doing something; to make a pretence of doing something." Translation is never easy and you take your pick. However if you were up on a charge of impersonating a police officer I doubt that saying you were merely giving the impression of being a police officer would get you very far.Nicolas Bellordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08063019108964247676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-90013846418085282892013-12-03T09:01:17.566+00:002013-12-03T09:01:17.566+00:00On this site:
http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/201...On this site:<br /><br />http://en.radiovaticana.va/news/2013/11/29/pope:_intelligence_is_a_gift/en1-751058<br /><br />it still says: "In the Gospel, Jesus does not become angry, but pretends to when the disciples do not understand him."<br /><br />Cut and paste doesn't lie but this is what's on the site now from your link, Fr:<br /><br />'In the Gospel, Jesus does become angry, but pretends to when the disciples do not understand him.'<br /><br />How much sense does the that make? They must have nixed the 'not' just for yucks and giggles and to make everyone more confused. Vatican publication is becoming as shifting as the sands upon which Pope Francis' words sidewind their way into the now shifting day by day papal-catholic-culture of 'making a mess'.Our Lady of Good Success-pray for us.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14746510579669229511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-59010134275268465012013-12-03T08:34:51.978+00:002013-12-03T08:34:51.978+00:00kiwiinamerica
I 'cut and pasted' what was ...kiwiinamerica<br />I 'cut and pasted' what was orinally on the Vatican Radio site, I have not misquoted!!!Fr Ray Blakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-44762095522417079852013-12-03T03:56:02.252+00:002013-12-03T03:56:02.252+00:00p.s. I suppose one upside to this Pontificate is m...p.s. I suppose one upside to this Pontificate is more often than not if the Pope does or says anything it's like, 'what'? And a person is forced back to the source - Church Tradition to find out whether the rock has mutated a bit or alot or the Pope just made a boo boo. In the process I get to learn more about our authentic Faith.Our Lady of Good Success-pray for us.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14746510579669229511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-8832032006675161602013-12-03T03:39:14.190+00:002013-12-03T03:39:14.190+00:00Who's the pretender? rhetorical question becau...Who's the pretender? rhetorical question because Christ doesn't pretend - the Truth can't pretend. <br /><br />The need to 'appeal' to the world, and 'appear' to be this or that - EG is drowning in this exhortation to simulate 'I'm ok you're ok.' As the old joke goes, then Christ looks down from the cross at these two people congratulating themselves on their okayness and says, then what am I doing up here? <br /><br />One gnostic writing has Christ say, 'I did not die in reality but in appearance ...' What is Pope Francis, who doesn't want to wear the red shoes representing the blood of the martyrs, like? <br /><br />St John Bosco 1862: There will be an ecumenical council in the next century, after which there will be chaos in the Church. <br /><br />PF - world youth day; "I want to tell you something. What is it that I expect as a consequence of World Youth Day? I want a mess. We knew that in Rio there would be great disorder, but I want trouble in the dioceses!" he said, speaking off the cuff in his native Spanish. "I want to see the church get closer to the people [the people? I'm a people, are you a people? or is it self-absorbed of anyone to recognise this?]. I want to get rid of clericalism, the mundane, this closing ourselves off within ourselves, in our parishes, schools or structures. Because these need to get out!"<br /><br />Chaos. There is no closing off - the Church has been, like a slowly boiling frog reaching 'out there' 'the people' world temperature for 50 years. The only closing off that's been going on is the closing off of the wider Church from the fullness of what Mater Ecclesiae, born 2000 years ago, really, not in appearance, but really Is.<br /><br />It 'appears' that Pope Francis is a Pope who is a Jesuit first, Bishop of Rome second, and Pope third.<br /><br />So it appears.Our Lady of Good Success-pray for us.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14746510579669229511noreply@blogger.com