tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post5616309239996550911..comments2023-12-16T16:17:43.886+00:00Comments on Fr Ray Blake's Blog: Modern Ultramontanism: a Jesuit ProblemFr Ray Blakehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-71995220965218861212012-11-21T22:16:26.736+00:002012-11-21T22:16:26.736+00:00Mercury,
"... are you saying Vatican I was a ...Mercury,<br />"... are you saying Vatican I was a bad thing? What is the difference between Ultramontanism and what Vatican I actually said (which is binding)?"<br /><br />No Vat I was good, its Spirit is evil. <br />Newman's understanding of Infallibity is useful. Though the wording of VI is rather grandiloquent, I do not think that we can claim it is introducing new doctrine, that is not possible, it merely unpacking what Greek and Latin fathers were saying in the 1st Millenium. We can only read VI & VII in continuity, it would be heretical to read it in rupture.Fr Ray Blakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-4973576941485342662012-11-21T21:40:45.747+00:002012-11-21T21:40:45.747+00:00A good article Father, which helps me try to under...A good article Father, which helps me try to understand the baffling changes I see in the Jesuits.<br /><br />I grew up in a Jesuit parish where Catholicism was something almost tangible, but on recent visits there the church and the liturgy seemed empty. The vibrant Jesuit priests of my youth must be turning in their graves.<br /><br />Incidentally, I believe there is a movement to canonise John XXIII and John Paul II. Personally I think this would be most inappropriateJacobihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04743062941733814176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-70063444886541027482012-11-21T21:32:53.290+00:002012-11-21T21:32:53.290+00:00Thanks, Father. It's a high school, though - N...Thanks, Father. It's a high school, though - New Orleans has a long tradition of excellent - and affordable Catholic high schools. After some weak catechesis since the 70s, many of them are starting to teach the Faith again.<br /><br />By the way, are you saying Vatican I was a bad thing? What is the difference between Ultramontanism and what Vatican I actually said (which is binding)?<br /><br />Also, don't you think a lot of the increasing focus in the person of the pope is a consequence of modern media and transportation technology? I mean, since the 19th century it has been easier and easier for the pope's person to be known to the world.Mercuryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15864822194727243615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-9059422167323303322012-11-21T20:03:01.392+00:002012-11-21T20:03:01.392+00:00" I think you seriously underestimate the pul..." I think you seriously underestimate the pull Jesuits (and Ultramontanism) had on Catholic intellectual life before, during and after the Council. It was that which slashed at the carapice of the Church the Liturgy."<br /><br />Yes. The Party Line changed, but the underlying mentality remained absolutely untouched.Anagnostishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03706938507885553293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-46204742624500496252012-11-21T19:55:14.773+00:002012-11-21T19:55:14.773+00:00"As lost as a Jesuit in Holy Week"
- An ..."As lost as a Jesuit in Holy Week"<br />- An old Benedictine saying.<br /><br />Says it all, really. Sooner they and their ideological "orthodoxies" have vanished from the scene for good, the better.Anagnostishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03706938507885553293noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-90741341467926407542012-11-21T19:49:17.428+00:002012-11-21T19:49:17.428+00:00Father Blake,
You are so right. The "presti...Father Blake,<br /><br />You are so right. The "prestige" and status of the Jesuits was enormous.<br /><br />Had they retained their faith and practised it according to the rules of their illustrious founder, we would not be where we are today.<br /><br />Thank you for raising the issue.Jeremiah Methuselahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15344139605953558862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-12098513733909498712012-11-21T18:09:19.206+00:002012-11-21T18:09:19.206+00:00Ma, I think you seriously underestimate the pull J...Ma, I think you seriously underestimate the pull Jesuits (and Ultramontanism) had on Catholic intellectual life before, during and after the Council. It was that which slashed at the carapice of the Church the Liturgy. Its change, and the acceptance of it stems entirely from the high Ultramontane view of the Papacy.<br /><br />Yes, I think you also have to add into the mix Liberation Theology, with its Marxist bias, Liberalism and Modernism too but the touch paper was Ultramontaism.<br /><br /><br />Mercury, I am glad to hear about the picture and the revival of the College, I just thought it iconic.Fr Ray Blakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-87011192930067814762012-11-21T17:59:25.535+00:002012-11-21T17:59:25.535+00:00I thought that mural was from my alma mater, altho...I thought that mural was from my <i>alma mater</i>, although it was created after my time.<br /><br />@Mercury, glad to hear things are improving. They weren't great when I was there in the early 1990s but they still provided me a decent-enough education that I found my way back to the Faith. :DFlambeauxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00133131881423202010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-58074189436629803602012-11-21T16:05:21.604+00:002012-11-21T16:05:21.604+00:00One exemplary Jesuit priest was Fr William Doyle S...One exemplary Jesuit priest was Fr William Doyle SJ. The cause for his beatification was "unpromoted" by the Jesuits as he wasn't seen to be "relevant for our time". Interestingly I think he is more relevant than ever in terms of his authentic Ignatian spirituality.<br />In reading a biography about him the reverence shown to the Mass in the battlefields of the Somme by the Irish soldiers is very moving. Little gems of information such as the soldiers being "scraped" ie going to Confession and another at the Sanctus - guns being fired (there is a term for this - sorry can't think..)<br /><br />More info on this saintly Jesuit :<br /><br />http://fatherdoyle.com/<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-10690105966986123742012-11-21T15:23:45.624+00:002012-11-21T15:23:45.624+00:00I can hardly believe this. A magnificent Church ad...I can hardly believe this. A magnificent Church adjoining Wimbledon College, my old school of good memories, to be abandoned by the Jesuits! How the mighty have fallen, but what a tragedy! umblepiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13455889107917179909noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-4245141992780459212012-11-21T13:43:52.157+00:002012-11-21T13:43:52.157+00:00Yes, but they dissented from the pope himself, as ...Yes, but they dissented from the pope himself, as well as papal teaching since then. You'd think that I what you were saying is true, they may not be traditionalists, but would at least be strong promoters of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the papal encyclicals since Paul VI, but they are the leading dissenters even from those things.<br /><br />But, more importantly, why do you have a picture of the mural at Jesuit High School in New Orleans, Louisiana? I was at the school when they unveiled it (though I graduated from somewhere else). After being liberal like many Catholic high schools for a while, they are one of the leading schools in the area thy is returning to orthodoxy - they have 14-year-olds reading Aquinas!Mercuryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15864822194727243615noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-66743703462824768682012-11-21T12:47:48.696+00:002012-11-21T12:47:48.696+00:00Nice theory Father, but I don't think it holds...Nice theory Father, but I don't think it holds water. The apostasy is across all orders. The Pope should be the personification of Tradition by definition, so their loyalty to the Pope should not have posed any difficulty in this regard. I would say the Dominicans and the Jesuits are most sorely hit. I would suggest maybe the nature of the apostasy is intellectual and intellectual pride is a perfect feeding ground for the germs to spread. TLMWxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15720022091832839393noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-64943651611724379962012-11-21T11:56:09.391+00:002012-11-21T11:56:09.391+00:00After withdrawing from Wimbledon, will the concent...After withdrawing from Wimbledon, will the concentrate on the manufacture of Jayes Fluid?Et Expectohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04273064434098923960noreply@blogger.com