tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post5882201296079993498..comments2023-12-16T16:17:43.886+00:00Comments on Fr Ray Blake's Blog: Plague and PestilenceFr Ray Blakehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comBlogger44125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-13291991777684597802009-07-29T10:37:32.009+01:002009-07-29T10:37:32.009+01:00a thorough refutation of gemoftheocean's comme...a thorough refutation of gemoftheocean's comments may be found here http://kneelingcatholic.blogspot.com/Kneeling Catholichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16797815971446807261noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-49183255269186975902009-07-28T13:33:55.075+01:002009-07-28T13:33:55.075+01:00A person who telephoned the swine flu hot line was...A person who telephoned the swine flu hot line was reported as having been asked:- 'Are you unconscious?!'pelerinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-70317549776004700952009-07-26T21:56:59.987+01:002009-07-26T21:56:59.987+01:00Oh boy, this is really getting out of control! Mas...Oh boy, this is really getting out of control! Mass Hysteria (literally!)<br /><br />Swine flu in the Chalice, on the Holy Sacraments, on the hands, in the air, in the Holy Water font, on your tongues, up your nose, in the pews, in Fr's biretta, on the floor, jumping out of the hymn books, crawling up your trouser leg, in the smoke from the burning incense!<br /><br />Blow me, better slam the doors, tape them over with 'Do Not Cross This Line' sticky tape and firmly shut every Catholic Church in the Country until the Dept of Health give us the all clear! <br /><br />Disinfectant foot baths by every doorway, alcoholic gel handwash instead of Holy Water in the fonts, stoups etc... Quarantine all Catholics - after all it only seems to be us who are at risk from Swine flu because of the Blessed Sacrament!<br /><br />Sheer flippin' madness and the devil is having a 'wow' time! His time is short, he's lost the war and so he's whipping up as much fury and attacking the Church (and every one of us) in every which way he can think of, so as to grab a few more precious souls.<br /><br />God Bless all.Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13031618301013986930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-74429632416206268262009-07-26T19:00:55.985+01:002009-07-26T19:00:55.985+01:00The Right Rev. John Gladwin reported in the Guardi...The Right Rev. John Gladwin reported in the Guardian,there is danger in the Holy Water fonts.<br /><br />"The water contained in stoups can easily become a source of infection and a means of rapidly spreading the Swine Flue virus", said the Right Reverend.<br /><br />I am sure during the Black Death plague of the past, the Holy Water fonts got a lot of useEdward P. Waltonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02819348411129870835noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-42766466529127251882009-07-26T18:23:05.212+01:002009-07-26T18:23:05.212+01:00Regarding this epidemic I have just read that a ce...Regarding this epidemic I have just read that a celebrated French medical professor has described it as a 'grippette' (little 'flu) and says that it is less harmful than the usual winter 'flu. Let's hope he's right!pelerinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-24062584828626186172009-07-25T19:41:13.528+01:002009-07-25T19:41:13.528+01:00Pelerin
What I posted was the text of the decree ...Pelerin<br /><br />What I posted was the text of the decree issued to the Priests and Deacons about five minutes after it was e-mailed out. I imagine that by this evening they'll all know.Deacon Stephen Morgannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-76345004430728233802009-07-24T20:47:59.032+01:002009-07-24T20:47:59.032+01:00PelIerin says 'have to admit that I would far...PelIerin says 'have to admit that I would far prefer it if this epidemic were to be used for the quiet disappearance of the sign of peace never to return'<br />I am totally in agreement with you, this is such a sacred part of the Mass and the last thing one wants to do is shake hands, wave, bow heads etc<br />I remember an elderly lady at Mass kneeling in deep prayer as everyone around was shaking hands, unfortunately her peace was spoilt by some bright spark tapping her on the shoulder to shake her hand???<br /><br />Please dear Bishops, allow us to receive Holy Communion with reverence on the tongue and we promise not to give you Swine Flu, pneumonia, lepresy, foot and mouth etc<br /><br />We have become such paranoid nation. Holy Communion is the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ, has that been forgotten in all this political correctness??Elizabethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06121562422631804938noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-85177406384066876352009-07-24T14:43:26.063+01:002009-07-24T14:43:26.063+01:00After reading the report of the Portsmouth diocese...After reading the report of the Portsmouth diocese I went to see what our own diocesan website says on this subject.<br /><br />I could find nothing there relating to any changes. Have priests been advised of any changes?<br /><br />The suggestion for the oriental custom of hands together and bowing for the sign of peace, whilst perhaps preferable to a hearty and possibly painful handshake, seems decidedly unEnglish and I feel it could lead to excessive bowing and giggling from children and even adults.<br /><br />I have to admit that I would far prefer it if this epidemic were to be used for the quiet disappearance of the sign of peace never to return!pelerinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-65955985528944981782009-07-24T14:04:38.773+01:002009-07-24T14:04:38.773+01:00Ever the pragmatist! This is what his Lordship sai...Ever the pragmatist! This is what his Lordship said about prostitution a couple of years or so back - <br /><br />"If you are going to take a pragmatic view and say prostitution happens, I think there is a need to make sure it's as well regulated as possible for the health of people involved and for the safety of the ladies themselves," Hollis said.<br /><br />So by laying down these regulations and giving out Holy Communion only in the hand the Bishop is exercising a particular pastoral concern for the vulnerable, namely, the elderly, children and those with underlying health problems.<br /><br />Well, in that case he should keep these regulations in place permanently as who knows when the next epidemic, pandemic, plague or whatever of measles, mumps, common cold, cholera, tuberculosis etc... etc... might break out. Oh don't worry the media will keep us all well informed - the devil will make sure of that!<br /><br />Personally I believe the good Bishop is playing into the hands of 'the enemy'. This issue has no end as what applies to this 'swine flu' applies equally to all other communicable diseases.<br /><br />It is another attack on receiving the Blessed Sacrament devoutly, which the devil hates!<br /><br />Let's keep Bishop Hollis and all our bishops in our prayers.Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13031618301013986930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-64351333807108145942009-07-24T12:13:10.331+01:002009-07-24T12:13:10.331+01:00"I think the Portuguese distil wine to very h..."I think the Portuguese distil wine to very high levels (80%?) so that they can fortify Port without having to add very much to the good wine".<br /><br />WOW!!!! Interesting comment Richard - way to go!!!! That stuff sounds nearly as potent as Poland's 'Czysty Spiritus' (and believe me, it has nothing to do with the Third Person of the Holy Trinity!) Now that will kill 100% of all known germs, but it's a bit more expensive than Domestos! ;-)Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13031618301013986930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-33993908514058254112009-07-24T09:16:58.889+01:002009-07-24T09:16:58.889+01:00The latest from Portsmouth:
Diocese of Portsmouth...The latest from Portsmouth:<br /><br />Diocese of Portsmouth<br /><br /><br />CATHOLIC CHURCH REGULATIONS: SWINE FLU EPIDEMIC<br /><br />During the current swine flu epidemic, in keeping with the latest guidelines that I have received, I recommend that the following measures be implemented in Catholic Churches throughout the diocese from this weekend:<br /><br />1) The Sign of Peace during Mass: instead of a handshake members of the congregation are asked to join their hands together, as in prayer, turn to their immediate neighbours, bowing slightly and saying “Peace be with you”.<br /><br />2) Holy Communion is to be given only on the hand, not on the tongue or from the chalice.<br /><br />3) Ministers of the Sacred Host are asked to ensure their hands are washed with sanitizers (provided) before and after ministering communion.<br /><br />These regulations will remain in place until further notice. It is hoped that the reasons for this temporary policy will be understood and appreciated. They have been made out of particular pastoral concern for the vulnerable, namely, the elderly, children and those with underlying health problems.<br /><br />Bishop Crispian Hollis 23rd July 2009Deacon Stephen Morgannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-74446462637246020272009-07-24T01:24:07.497+01:002009-07-24T01:24:07.497+01:00On the point of alcohol killing germs, I thought i...On the point of alcohol killing germs, I thought it had to be over 60% to be much use.<br /><br />Abelour sell a cask-strength whisky bottled at just over 60%, but despite being matured in old sherry casks I suspect it wouldn't really count as wine.<br /><br />I think the Portuguese distil wine to very high levels (80%?) so that they can fortify Port without having to add very much to the good wine. Perhaps you could get hold of a bottle of that neat?Richardnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-40103183012951585952009-07-23T18:25:43.139+01:002009-07-23T18:25:43.139+01:00http://kneelingcatholic.blogspot.com/search?q=hyge...http://kneelingcatholic.blogspot.com/search?q=hygeinic<br /><br />The above is a link to an article pertinent to this discussion. We discuss this '24/7' at kneelingcatholic. When others tire and say 'what's the big deal?', we are just getting warmed up!<br /><br />Gemoftheocean: please feel free to chime in. I am in utter disagreement with your position. But I do love a good argument.<br /><br />Way to go, Lizard!<br /><br />k. c.Kneeling Catholichttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16797815971446807261noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-70081729741706863312009-07-22T11:25:01.818+01:002009-07-22T11:25:01.818+01:00Sorry, Father, I admit I am becoming really boring...Sorry, Father, I admit I am becoming really boring, just a little clarification for (8). I think it is really important to develop arguments if someone decides to ban the normative rules. Or maybe our bishops could ban the OF instead :)<br /><br />for (8) the communicant's palms...>30 s at 15 cm below the nose.... The communicant's own fresh breath droplets on his/her own hands are important because the priest may inadvertently touch them. Further, because communion in hands may seem safe, at least some priests may be more careless, which would increase the probability of touching hands and spreading germs. The argument here is exactly the same as that of Pope Benedict on condoms.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-5180549734851616812009-07-22T10:06:19.170+01:002009-07-22T10:06:19.170+01:00"the communicant is likely to breath droplets..."the communicant is likely to breath droplets onto the priests finger tips or hands"<br /><br />Father, probably the last comment in my rather boring epidemiological thread/flood - I'm sorry.<br /><br />(8) droplets may be less likely if communion is on the tongue: imagine how can you breath with mouth open and tongue out. It is probably rather difficult, I guess most people hold breath for a moment or breath slightly through the nose only (hence most breath droplets would fall on to their own tongue, as nostrils are directed down). Anyway, it is very unlikely that the communicant will exhale strongly at the Holy Body. The probability of spreading droplets is further diminished by very short time the priest's hands are at the level of the communicant's mouth especially in the EF, cf. (2).<br /><br />(9) the probability of droplets may actually be higher in case of communion in hand. Communicants usually stay for >30 seconds with their hands crossed only 15 cm from their nose, an ample time for droplets to fall to their own hands (the communicant's nostrils are directed downwards). The probability of the priest's hands to be in contact with droplets is rather low here, but perhaps not lower or not much lower than in case of communion on the tongue.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-84982940494969593142009-07-21T22:21:02.606+01:002009-07-21T22:21:02.606+01:00Father: As you said "expect people to be sens...Father: As you said "expect people to be sensible". IMHO, if people are ill with a contagious disease that seems to me a valid reason for staying home from Mass, much less receiving Holy Communion in church.<br /><br />'course we all know people are not always 'sensible' regarding not presenting while in a state of mortal sin so maybe it's to much to ask people to refrain because of illness. Perhaps that's a reason behind these decisions you mentioned.Cathy_of_Alexhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16795566831031491371noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-29265306682955507862009-07-21T18:47:05.209+01:002009-07-21T18:47:05.209+01:00George said...
... please read my first paragraph...George said...<br /><br />... please read my first paragraph again because I clearly state that the Swine flu pathogen is indeed a virus...<br /><br />Yes, George, I apologise I was inattentive, although I still hold that alcohol itself is not the best protection against viruses, washing yes (with water or better alcohol), but this is rather academic and unimportant. I especially thank you for your last note. It is not a matter of epidemiology. People scared by the Most Holy Sacrament stay home.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-19499857882532148012009-07-21T18:31:07.105+01:002009-07-21T18:31:07.105+01:00Dr Jekyll said...
lizard - communion on the tongu...Dr Jekyll said...<br /><br />lizard - communion on the tongue is a much higher risk for transmitting<br />swine flu (or any other respiratory based illnesses) as the communicant<br />is likely to breath droplets onto the priests finger tips or hands,<br />which are then transmitted to the next host or communicant's mouth. ...<br /><br />I can't see how kneeling for communion would reduce the risk of spreading swine flu!???<br /><br />Kneeling would reduce risk significantly.<br /><br />(1) the priest usually keeps the Chalice well above the communicants mouth, reducing the probability that his hands and the Holy Body are contacted with or affected by the communicant's breath/droplets.<br />(2) The priest's hands are lowered at the level of the communicant's mouth for only a very short time, further reducing the risk.<br />(3) Motor control is much easier if you are guided visually: it would also be much easier for the priest if the communicant mouth is well below, so he can better see both mouth and tongue (Father, I wonder how (in)convenient is it to give communion to a standing person who is much taller than the priest). This would reduce the probability that the priest inadvertently touches the mouth or contacts saliva.<br />(4) Communicant does not talk, therefore he/she does not spread droplets (droplets and infection may spread more than 5 times further by talking than just breathing).<br />(5) If the communicant coughs or sneezes, the potential damage is much less if his/her mouth is well below the Holy Sacrament and the priest's face.<br />(6) The time the priest spends at each communicant is much smaller in the traditional form, this would significantly diminish the duration of time the priest stays in contact with infection if one of the communicants turns out to be contagious.<br />(7) The whole communion process is much faster in the traditional form, there is usually less crowding and associated contacts between the communicants. Obviously, it also would reduce the risk (especially contacting breath droplets).<br /><br />In case of a serious epidemic we must protect the priest much more than the parishioners (I suggest the priest must be kept in an isolated vacuum chamber with double walls when not celebrating Mass, don you mind, Father?:) and the traditional form seem to do this very well. I do not think we must invent something novel when we have an almost perfect procedure verified by numerous previous generations (I do not think we are much smarter than they, probably the reverse is the case).Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-44788407102533967312009-07-21T17:23:49.703+01:002009-07-21T17:23:49.703+01:00gemoftheocean said...
lizard, people may have bee...gemoftheocean said...<br /><br />lizard, people may have been "touching things" but they are not going to turn around and stick their finger in the next Communicant's mouth. <br /><br />gem, it is much easier to control the cleanness of hands of just one single person, the priest (or one or two additional servers) than numerous parishioners immediately coming from the streets. Also, the priest is preparing rather seriously beforte the mass, including washing his hands. I guess most priests will do their best to provide as much cleanness as possible. Most sensible priets will also be especially meticulous in case of an epidemic. People's hands is one of the greatest germs carrier. It is not a big problem if you do not <br />lick your fingers, but may bring you ill quite easily if you try to eat a snack or a hot dog (skin really protects) with dirty hands.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-45377210424917813992009-07-21T17:01:25.870+01:002009-07-21T17:01:25.870+01:00Dera Fr Ray, having just sent in a further comment...Dera Fr Ray, having just sent in a further comment on the benefits of alcohol based disinfectants against virus particles etc.... I've just had the awful realisation that we have (unintentionally) turned the receiving of the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar to a debate about medical epidemiology!<br /><br />I'm so sorry.<br /><br />Nothing will ever stop me from receiving Holy Communion on the tongue and I couldn't care less whether the Priest was suffering with flu (swine or other!), leprosy<br />dengue fever or myxomatosis! ;-)<br /><br />And the Priest should not worry about catching flu bugs through handing out Holy Communion. How many tens of thousands of Holy Priests have administered Sacraments to the sick and dying over the centuries. In fact this is a great Hallmark of our Catholic Faith - administering to the sick and a great act of Christian Charity.Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13031618301013986930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-61954513509916464232009-07-21T16:40:04.361+01:002009-07-21T16:40:04.361+01:00Lizard - thanks for your note about my comment, ho...Lizard - thanks for your note about my comment, however please read my first paragraph again because I clearly state that the Swine flu pathogen is indeed a virus.<br /><br />I am a Biological Sciences graduate and worked in Medical Research in London for three years (mid 1970's), before starting my own business. We used alcohol to wipe down lab surfaces and apparatus as a quick means of disinfection. Look at the proliferation of 'alcoholic gels' in hospitals as hand cleaners.<br /><br />Generally, enveloped (lipophilic) viruses are susceptible to alcohol: Herpes simplex virus (HSV), human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), influenza virus (Flu), respiratory syncytial virus (RSV), vaccinia virus, Hepatitis B and C viruses are considered susceptible to alcohols. <br /><br />Sourced from: Healthcare Infection Control Practices Advisory Committee and the HICPAC/SHEA/APIC/IDSA Hand Hygiene Task Force. MMWR 2002;51 (No. RR-16):pp 10-22.<br /><br />You make a lot of sense with your comments generally. God Bless.Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13031618301013986930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-20984963550331637802009-07-21T13:09:40.581+01:002009-07-21T13:09:40.581+01:00Tom said...
So any bishop who has done so is acti...Tom said...<br /><br />So any bishop who has done so is acting beyond his competence - unless the universal law-giver, the Holy Father, has dispensed with the universal norm and we've not been told about it.<br /><br />It is correct, and i would find such ban the most offensive. But faithful and clergy must obey even such nonsense, unfortunately (in this particular case they do not overtly contradict the Magusterium, because communion in the hand is allowed by indult). Although, no one can forbid to complain loudly and intensely about this clearly unlawful and very offensive decisions. <br /><br />On issuing such bans, the priest must make a provision of a lavatory where ALL parishioners can thoroughly wash their hands before the Mass and make a clear notice of this. This lavatory must be fully functional also during the Mass.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-1924820167385564592009-07-21T12:37:47.345+01:002009-07-21T12:37:47.345+01:00George,
you are not right here, H1N1 is a virus,...George, <br /><br />you are not right here, H1N1 is a virus, not a bacteria. This means alcohol is useless for disinfection. Though, it will kill bacteria - this is also very important because in many cases it is not the virus itself, but the secondary infections which kill people. If you noticed this, originally mortality in Mexico was much much higher than in the USA and Europe. I think this is because of secondary infections which overlay on the viral infection (more likely in poor countries with weak medical services).<br /><br />I also agree with Fr. Ray that while the Substance is different, accidents still present (obviously). This means, theoretically, they might spread infection. Although, in this particular case, it is very very unlikely, first, because it is the Most Holy Sacrament and God will certainly protect us (I love your example of Lurdes waters). I did a very quick search of the available research literature but did not find any evidence that common communion ever spread any infection (there is some literature on this subject, mostly from Lutherans and Anglicans).<br /><br />I think the best protection is just common sense. Wash hands after coming from the street, try not to swallow sandwiches and snacks on the street, with hands dirty. Avoid unnecessary contact with people looking ill etc. Have a good healthy diet - the best protectioin against viruses is our own immunity (in contrast to bacterial infection little can be done against viruses). Most of these simple advices completely coincide with the moral teaching, especially those on avoiding gluttony eating all kinds of snacks continuously. I think some people might even benefit spiritually from these "restrictions":)<br /><br />Reverence to the Most Holy Sacrament will also help not only spiritually but simply and purely physically. Trust the Providence, and the traditional rules and practices previous numerous generations of faithful were saved by this (all humanity have not died so far by infections transmitted by the overtly "antisanitaric" practices of religious "delusants").<br /><br />The most important thing in my opinion is that the worrying and stress caused by panicky news are much much worse that the potential harm caused by the influenzia itself. In this country, in spite of all the criticism of the NHS, it works more or less adequately protecting people. The number of victimns of traffic accidents here is much higher, mortality caused by hospital infections like staphillococcus is also much higher. I wonder why no one is so much worrying abouth these deaths? And most importantly, baby morality caused by abortions is ever much much higher. Influenzia is far not the most important thing on the Earth.<br /><br />Still, I am sure some precautions are absolutely necessary for two reasons. First, to minimise the risk of infection (not necessarily directly linked with the sacraments, just any risk arising when many people are gathered in a limited premises). Second, light-mindedness will certainly stir significant critical attacks on the Church from the liberal media (oh, these religious obscurants do not care about the health and safety, oh oh oh). Rationality and common sense always help.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-35024210490887512542009-07-21T09:20:08.271+01:002009-07-21T09:20:08.271+01:00Deacon Stephen - thank you for that helpful clarif...Deacon Stephen - thank you for that helpful clarification about Bishop Hollis.<br /><br />The reception of Holy Communion on the tongue is the universal norm; reception in the hand is an approved exception to that norm, at the choice of the individual recipient - but is not an a legal par with the norm. As far as I am aware, no one (including a bishop) has the right to derogate from the universal norm. So any bishop who has done so is acting beyond his competence - unless the universal law-giver, the Holy Father, has dispensed with the universal norm and we've not been told about it.Tomnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-1258053986818198582009-07-21T09:16:47.122+01:002009-07-21T09:16:47.122+01:00Francis mentions the 'olden days.' Whilst ...Francis mentions the 'olden days.' Whilst I am not old enough to remember the 1918 pandemic of Spanish flu (and when thinking of this we must also remember that it was an era without antibiotics) but I did live through the 1957 Asian flu epidemic and the 1968 Hong Kong flu. I don't think either of these generated as much concern amongst the general population as this one appears to be doing although inevitably it did fill newspapers at the time.<br /><br />I can't help thinking of Clive Dunn in 'Dad's Army' running around shouting 'Don't panic! Don't panic!'pelerinnoreply@blogger.com