tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post6756817346298957643..comments2023-12-16T16:17:43.886+00:00Comments on Fr Ray Blake's Blog: Follower of FashionFr Ray Blakehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-57622696071506424962014-03-03T18:36:00.659+00:002014-03-03T18:36:00.659+00:00nice post, amazing blog. :)
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West...nice post, amazing blog. :)<br /><a href="http://www.fashionoutfits.org/" rel="nofollow">Pakistani Dresses</a><br /><a href="http://www.fashionoutfits.org/" rel="nofollow">Western Dresses</a><br /><a href="http://www.fashionoutfits.org/" rel="nofollow">Pakistani Clothes</a><br /><a href="http://www.fashionoutfits.org/" rel="nofollow">Desi Dresses</a>Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02681298744656753706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-71613659164388101352014-02-23T11:06:13.680+00:002014-02-23T11:06:13.680+00:00closed? really Father? we don't have Shrove Tu...closed? really Father? we don't have Shrove Tuesday where I live so there's nothing ignorant I can say about that.Our Lady of Good Success-pray for us.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14746510579669229511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-59160372771566512982014-02-21T16:10:13.776+00:002014-02-21T16:10:13.776+00:00COMMENTS here are closedCOMMENTS here are closedFr Ray Blakehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-84253625621230300682014-02-21T15:49:23.241+00:002014-02-21T15:49:23.241+00:00"George obviously has been treated badly by s..."George obviously has been treated badly by someone or someones whom he would label, 'trad'; and what does nymphomania or gnomephomania have to do with any of this?"<br /><br />No, in fact I don't think I've been treated badly at all. <br /><br />Rather, I see the situation plainly. Looking at the situation, as a father responsible for the care of many souls, I cannot leave my family in an area that has such a deceptive and seductive type of potential for serious sin. <br /><br />Out in the Novus Ordo world, it's much easier for us to distinguish between lunatics, heretics, and orthodox Catholics. <br /><br />Within Traditionalist bubbles -- it's a giant echo chamber. It's full of self-sufficiency. If you read the Holy Father's comments fully this is indeed what he was talking about. A faith that is surface deep. You can protest back saying that the faith within most Novus Ordo communities is also surface deep, or even more surface deep! And that may in fact be true, but what does that have to do with us? Since when do we judge our own moral behavior based on the actions of others. Again, for many it's all about being better than the losers in the mainline Church. Deadly sinful approach. "Lord I thank you for making me unlike other men." It's pharisaical. <br /><br />Anyway, if the Church is in so great a crisis that we must be engaged in an insurgency against our lawful superiors (an insurgency of words if not in deeds), then at the very least you should define what are the conditions whereby we will stop the insurgency and reengage our superiors with full, filial piety? What will the restored Church look like? Because my fear is many will not recognize the restoration when it comes. <br /><br />That's the central danger of Traditionalism -- when it clearly starts to separate some Catholics from the mainline Church. <br /><br />When will the crisis end? Do you trust yourself to judge that? And in the mean time, how is the lack of filial piety affecting your own soul here and now? <br /><br />I would wager to say that many a Traditionalist would find an immense spiritual progress and the reduction of spiritual impediments, if only he received the graces awaiting him when he shows filial piety to the successors of the Apostles and most especially to the Pope.<br />Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13835223918176453873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-75247562333705812052014-02-21T13:04:55.257+00:002014-02-21T13:04:55.257+00:00oops, meant Pius V, or maybe I didn'toops, meant Pius V, or maybe I didn'tOur Lady of Good Success-pray for us.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14746510579669229511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-11667906420505714632014-02-21T06:14:46.586+00:002014-02-21T06:14:46.586+00:00Bishop Bergoglio and his passport are a post vii J...Bishop Bergoglio and his passport are a post vii Jesuit; surely only protestants think Catholics are supposed to worship a pope (how many times do we have to remind ourselves that Christ chose a thrice denier, and someone whom he called 'satan' to be the first pope (a worthy Pope is the one who says 'You are the Son of the Living God...[and] to Whom else shall we go, Lord [and] yes, I love thee Lord and I WILL feed your Lambs); George obviously has been treated badly by someone or someones whom he would label, 'trad'; and what does nymphomania or gnomephomania have to do with any of this?<br /><br />p.s. does anyone on here really believe that Paul VI got 'right' what Paul V got 'wrong'?Our Lady of Good Success-pray for us.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14746510579669229511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-20913739595248833662014-02-20T23:52:30.302+00:002014-02-20T23:52:30.302+00:00Pope Francis is winging it, with every impromptu c...Pope Francis is winging it, with every impromptu comment that comes to his head. First with the comment about how Our Lady thought she was tricked into deceit at the the foot of the cross and now this.<br /><br />As the last Thomist theologian, Garrigou-Lagrange O.P, once said of the future John Paul II, when marking one of his essays as a seminarian: "He speaks much but says very little."Aduliohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00534730218402742905noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-80027573883661814462014-02-20T19:54:16.688+00:002014-02-20T19:54:16.688+00:00George: What you said about traddies was "The...George: What you said about traddies was "They have tons of folks who would never be seen at a Novus Ordo Mass, but will watch the most obscene stuff on TV."<br /><br />That implies an addiction to sex in the form of pornography or obscenity. You really cannot say that kind of thing and then pretend you did not without being seen as dishonest.Nicolas Bellordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08063019108964247676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-29899819276340789382014-02-20T19:14:30.591+00:002014-02-20T19:14:30.591+00:00A minor point I know, but I did spell "sexual...A minor point I know, but I did spell "sexual addiction" correctly and was actually agreeing with you in part.Sadie Vacantisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04823532366874114366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-8361585292381589832014-02-20T17:13:22.290+00:002014-02-20T17:13:22.290+00:00I don't think I ever mentioned "sex addit...I don't think I ever mentioned "sex addition" nor did I say "every insight of the Pope is somehow specially anointed by the Holy Spirit." Wow. <br /><br />Your comments only serve to confirm the worst concerns about the Traditionalist movement.Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13835223918176453873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-5169726158571219152014-02-20T14:13:01.720+00:002014-02-20T14:13:01.720+00:00@George,
To quote from Mr. Oblaski from the film &...@George,<br />To quote from Mr. Oblaski from the film 'Billy Madison':<br /><br />"...what you've just said... is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul..."Liam Ronanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01376666519733160167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-75428290436504495252014-02-20T14:02:04.016+00:002014-02-20T14:02:04.016+00:00George,
You simply don't understand what fili...George,<br /><br />You simply don't understand what filial piety is or its place in Catholic theology. It certainly doesn't entail pretending that his every insight of the Pope is somehow specially anointed by the Holy Spirit. <br /><br />For example, was Pope John Paul II's insistence that Fr. Maciel was a holy man that was a reliable guide for the youth worthy of filial piety? Was Peter's instance that all gentiles needed to be circumcised worthy? Was that from the Holy Spirit? Was Pope Steven VI's trial over the corpse of his successor entitled to special deference?<br /><br />The fact is that the clergy insisted that this was the age of the laity and that we were supposed to read the signs of the times. A mature faith, in their own words, requires discernment and individual faith, not a triumphalist, non-reflextive reliance on the Church as a free ticket to heaven that alleviates our individual responsibility. What was VII if not a statement from the Bishops that the policies of the previous Popes was insufficient. How ironic that when the laity's voice contradicts the judgments of the clergy, they are told to quiet down again.<br /><br />The results are in for anyone with eyes to see. What we have been doing for the past 50 years has simply not worked! The power of the so-called traditionalist position arises from this empirical data. People have watched the Church adopt a new strategy to disastrous results. The fact that some of the clergy, including the Pope, are still committed to it means that we must inevitably march on (as loyal sons) for the time being. It does not mean we need to turn off our brains and pretend that Pope Francis has some special insight. He is simply continuing the policies that he has pushed for the last 40 years, not responding to some super-charism of the Petrine ministry. Cosmoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14199946824127025416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-59225427793987978012014-02-20T12:51:28.998+00:002014-02-20T12:51:28.998+00:00I think this conversation is getting ridiculous. ...I think this conversation is getting ridiculous. Thomas has made an excellent comment; except I do like to use a missal. If I do not I have terrible distractions and anyway I find that unless I have a biblical text in front of me I lose a lot of the meaning from just listening to it. St Paul is particularly difficult.<br /><br />But all these generalisations about the faults of different groups I find a waste of time and they just amount to ad hominem attacks. Without very reliable empirical evidence how can one possibly say that some group is more obsessed by sex than another? Am I really supposed to believe that traddies are worse in this respect than those who dissent from the Church's teaching on contraception, homosexuality, divorce etc?<br /><br />The real debate is about loving God and following his commandments which means discerning with the help of the magisterium what those commandments are and trying to follow them on a personal basis and trying to encourage others to do likewise. That is the way happiness lies.Nicolas Bellordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08063019108964247676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-15591997216386959782014-02-20T11:09:36.213+00:002014-02-20T11:09:36.213+00:00I understand, so filial piety is in no way mandato...I understand, so filial piety is in no way mandatory for you, rather it's contingent on a series of conditions which you alone are the judge over. Got it.<br /><br />But that raises another good point.<br /><br />Traditionalists are just as infected with the Enlightenment as are the rest of the Church and all humanity. Our attitudes are more like Oliver Cromwell than like Thomas More. But we champion ourselves as such defenders of Holy Tradition -- except that part of the Tradition which requires us to be personally Traditional in our conduct. When it's inconvenient to be Traditional in our conduct we can resort to the same privileges won for us by our Liberal and revolutionary forefathers. <br /><br />Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13835223918176453873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-87915381201643887072014-02-20T08:56:32.998+00:002014-02-20T08:56:32.998+00:00I have some sympathy with George's view. What ...I have some sympathy with George's view. What trads lament is not the loss of the TLM per se but the ingenious subculture which emerged to augment the laity's 'non participation' in the ancient Mass. That is what has been lost. For trads to defend the TLM on the basis that it was "never difficult to understand" is to miss the point. Yes it was difficult to understand.<br /><br />George establishes an interesting link between sexual addiction and the attractions of a traditional culture. This may well be true but difficult to prove without emperical data.Sadie Vacantisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04823532366874114366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-81435044863441950602014-02-20T08:18:06.921+00:002014-02-20T08:18:06.921+00:00George said: If only our [Bishop Bergoglio] receiv...George said: If only our [Bishop Bergoglio] received half of this impassioned defense in this forum!'<br /><br />I'm waiting for any defense from him of his sheep, of the deposit of faith, the treasures...<br /><br />Our Lady of Good Success-pray for us.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14746510579669229511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-31790106066527672042014-02-19T19:04:37.681+00:002014-02-19T19:04:37.681+00:00What I find mos disturbing is people calling eithe...What I find mos disturbing is people calling either themselves or others "traditional Catholics" or NO Catholics". That feels like a schismatic mentality to me. We are either Catholics or we are not. There are two legitimate expressions of the Roman Rite and they both belong to the one Church. Yes there are issues to be debated around the pros and cons of these liturgical forms, but you are not a better or worse person, or a more authentic Catholic than others for taking one side or other in that debate. There is a bad habit on both sides of the argument of concentrating on the worst extremes of what can sometimes go on to make a point. "Clown" masses etc. are fortunately very rare in my experience in ordinary parishes. Yes, there are thinsg I find difficult, such as "children's liturgy" which is not part of the Ordinary Form but very much an intrusive fashion (although it takes a brave priest to put an end to it). I also have some difficulties with the Extraordinary Form, perhaps precisely because it is extraordinary rather than the routine natural expression of Catholic parish life as it used to be. Back then it would not have has the feeling of self-conscious political, social and theological point making it does sometimes carry now. I absolutely accept the point that what was sacred for generations of saints has enduring value, but personally I can pray better without my nose stuck in a book. In the vernacular I can let the words of the liturgy just flow through me and join in with my heart and mind because they are in my own language. Once again, what I long for is a true reform of the reform (the liturgy has been constantly reformed over the centuries - I meet "trads" who sneer at Pius XII as much as Paul VI, and even curl their lip at Leo XII or ... take your pick how far back you want to take your "traditiaonalism"). <br /><br />I think Pope Francis is ill informed about the nature of young people's interest in rediscovering so many things that were swept away in the 1970s and 80s, but in his following remark he says that what really matters is encountering the saving power of Christ. Like most Jesuits he doesn't really get liturgy IMO, but surely he is right that turning liturgy into factional warfare or infighting (on either side) is a sure sign that someone has missed the point of Catholicism in the first place.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-38722629290692324212014-02-19T18:32:33.426+00:002014-02-19T18:32:33.426+00:00If only our Holy Father received half of this impa...If only our Holy Father received half of this impassioned defense in this forum!<br /><br />Well, it just goes to show how much the truth does indeed hurt.<br /><br />Freely cast judgments around you at the sad state of things in the Church and society at large -- but recoil in shock, horror, and bouts of juvenile indignation when someone (from your own camp even) suggests that we have a lot of our own backyard to straighten out !<br />Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13835223918176453873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-10648841981475337742014-02-19T18:06:15.783+00:002014-02-19T18:06:15.783+00:00George is a troll. Don't feed him.George is a troll. Don't feed him.Gillineauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17789163020221679786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-55896117997277621562014-02-19T18:01:41.027+00:002014-02-19T18:01:41.027+00:00George said: 'Many seem to adopt a harsh anti-...George said: 'Many seem to adopt a harsh anti-social, anti-government lifestyle obstentibly to protect their families, but it seems more all about them, as they doom their children to a life of material povety -- a poverty not for Christ, but for themselves and at the service of their own mental sickness.' Trad families generally have only one wage earner what with all the babies. This is why they're poor. It's not anti-anything; it's just pro-life. And yes, pro-life tends towards anti-social/ anti-government as society and government are just a little anti-babies. Gillineauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17789163020221679786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-80689517873667979702014-02-19T15:59:34.214+00:002014-02-19T15:59:34.214+00:00@ George,
I have been, as it were, part of “tradi...@ George,<br /><br />I have been, as it were, part of “traditional Catholic communities” for want of a better term, in different countries, for more than 40 years and the people you describe are completely unrecognisable.<br /><br />The ferocious judgements you make simply do not make any kind of sense and I have serious misgivings about your presence on this forum.<br /><br />Certainly, I don’t take you seriously for one tiny moment.<br />Jeremiah Methuselahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15344139605953558862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-88834635140473641532014-02-19T15:24:28.476+00:002014-02-19T15:24:28.476+00:00"Trads generally are standing in judgment of ..."Trads generally are standing in judgment of the rest of the Church."<br /><br />Non-trads do this, too, if the polls are any indication. How many tens, even hundreds, of millions of Catholics think the Church's centuries-old teachings on, e.g., matters of sexual morality need to be deformed to accommodate their favored perversion(s)?<br /><br />The problem you describe is really just narcissism, namely, the inability to transcend the horizon of the self and relate to others as others. It's pervasive. I'm not immune to it, you're not immune to it.<br /><br />The best way to make yourself immune to it is to abstract these kinds of conversations away from particular persons, the better to avoid degenerating into tetchy, pique-prone, post-literate rage. Hence, instead of asking "Are trads on average meaner to people than non-trads?" you should be asking "Does the TLM present the truths of the Catholic faith in a clearer, more coherent fashion than the NO? Does it conduce to a more authentically Catholic worship than the NO?" etc.Sean W.https://www.blogger.com/profile/10085184456489549231noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-76812841107991263752014-02-19T11:12:15.334+00:002014-02-19T11:12:15.334+00:00I mentioned Cardinal Arinze's introduction to ...I mentioned Cardinal Arinze's introduction to Sacrosanctum Concilium as it clearly shows how people are upset by some of the innovations associated with the NO which cause people to prefer the EF. This passage struck me in particular:<br /><br />'Some people think that liturgical renewal means the removal of kneelers from Church pews, the knocking down of altar rails or the positioning of the altar in the middle of the sitting area of the people. The Church has never said any such thing. Nor does liturgical restoration mean iconoclasm or the removal of statues and sacred images. These should be displayed, albeit with good judgement. And the altar of the Blessed Sacrament should be outstanding for its beauty and honoured prominence, otherwise in some so-called restored churches one could rightly lament: "They have taken my Lord away, and I don't know where they have put him" (Jn 20:13)'Nicolas Bellordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08063019108964247676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-1144301482974745242014-02-18T23:03:52.791+00:002014-02-18T23:03:52.791+00:00What's behind all this generalised blackening ...What's behind all this generalised blackening of the reputations of people who honour the traditional Mass of the Holy Church? There can be no good in smearing people who honour and hold to the Tradition of the Faith, presumably the whole deposit of the Faith. It is not rational to make such allegations about a whole swathe of people in this way; how could anyone know so much about the sins of so many people? This seems unjust and diabolical. Lyndahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01714204002726632689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-3805972498306595242014-02-18T19:57:17.037+00:002014-02-18T19:57:17.037+00:00George: You wrote "Others can protest with t...George: You wrote "Others can protest with their own observations, but the Trad communities are full of pharisees. They have tons of folks who would never be seen at a Novus Ordo Mass, but will watch the most obscene stuff on TV."<br /><br />I take this to mean that on the whole some Traddies watch obscene movies whilst NO people do not. I am just amazed at your generalisations and judgemental statements. I think you are probably from the USA where you say you have observed these things.<br /><br />As somebody with traditional tendencies I think the distinction is not between those who prefer the EF to the NO but between those who aspire to be orthodox in their faith and those who dissent from the teachings of the Church. That is where the debate should lie. It may be that the first lot have a tendency to prefer the EF and the latter the NO but that is irrelevant.<br /><br />What I want is reverent services whether in the EF or the NO. I have been reading Cardinal Arinze's introduction in the CTS copy of Sacrosanctum Concilium and I would go along with him one hundred per cent. Personally I am not all that keen on returning to having just the EF but I am frequently appalled by the way the NO is said in a way I am never appalled by the EF.<br /><br />There may be people who think that the EF is all there is to being a Catholic but I have not come across them. But to paint all traddies as you do in this light is not very useful.<br /><br />What we are up against in England are those who dissent from the teachings of the Church rubbishing the teaching on sexual matters in particular.<br /><br />You say " Trads live in a world of self-sufficiency." Well that is a generalisation which smears all Trads not just the few. I could say the same about NO order people who dissent. I am at present trying to engage the priests in my parish on the subject of the rubbishing of Humanae Vitae which one of them has done. Polite letters are just ignored. There is no dialogue or any response as to why they think I am wrong. Are they not "self-sufficient"?<br /><br />By the way this afternoon I watched part of a film: "American Beauty". Am I a traddie watching an obscene film? It undoubtedly is but on the other hand it is a moral and terrible indictment of affluent life in the USA.Nicolas Bellordhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08063019108964247676noreply@blogger.com