tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post6784523128322816398..comments2023-12-16T16:17:43.886+00:00Comments on Fr Ray Blake's Blog: Opening the Lectorate to WomenFr Ray Blakehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-25353842081910341982008-10-28T20:17:00.000+00:002008-10-28T20:17:00.000+00:00Dear FatherTribunus, as usual, sorts out what actu...Dear Father<BR/><BR/>Tribunus, as usual, sorts out what actually happened from what the believers in the "spirit of V2" think happened. <BR/><BR/>I wonder if something that 'On The Side Of The Angels' recently posted on the Holy Smoke blog might be happening: that the Pope is encouraging this sort of ill-informed proposition to surface in this semi-official form just so that he can nail it in a form that will leave it nailed for ever.Ttonyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15185875893212146794noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-59684148009959225332008-10-28T18:04:00.000+00:002008-10-28T18:04:00.000+00:00Dear all,Well said, Fr Ray (and others).One point,...Dear all,<BR/><BR/>Well said, Fr Ray (and others).<BR/><BR/>One point, however. Minor Orders were not strictly abolished.<BR/><BR/>In <I>Ministeria Quaedam</I> Pope Paul VI enacted and promulgated, <I>inter alia</I>, the following:<BR/><BR/>"1. First tonsure is no longer conferred; entrance into the clerical state is joined to the diaconate.<BR/><BR/>2. What up to now were called minor orders are henceforth to be called ministries.<BR/><BR/>3. Ministries may be assigned to lay Christians; hence they are no longer to be considered as reserved to candidates for the sacrament of orders."<BR/><BR/>Legally, these are not words of abolition or suppression. Minor Orders are now to be "called" ministries. They are not, however, suppressed.<BR/><BR/>Moreover, entrance into the clerical state being "joined to the diaconate" is not effective, in law, to abolish the minor orders of clergy, either.<BR/><BR/>In effect, the conferring of minor orders was simply suspended and replaced by the lay ministries.<BR/><BR/>If this were not so then there would have had to be rather more legislation than <I>Ecclesia Dei Adflicta</I> or <I>Summorum Pontificum</I> (and related changes) in order to permit the restoration of the minor orders, but FSSP and ICRSS have been conferring minor orders, <I>cum permissu</I>, without such legislation.<BR/><BR/>It is yet another example of post-Vatican II supposed "legislation" by mere rumour or word of mouth, rather than by any actual law.<BR/><BR/>I suspect that part of the motivation for the lay ministries was, as Paul VI stated:<BR/><BR/>"The conferring of ministries does not bring with it the right to support or remuneration from the Church".<BR/><BR/>Moreover, it has been very useful to brutal Seminary rectors and bishops to be able to deny the rights of the clerical state to seminarians right up until diaconate ordination. <BR/><BR/>They can, for instance, sack non-clergy for much flimsier reasons and many a suffering seminarian has been led on for 4 or even 5 years, without ordination, only to find himself summarily sacked without any real redress.<BR/><BR/>The appalling hypocrisy of this form of gross injustice perpetrated by bishops and rectors is not often fully appreciated by the unsuspecting laity. Yet it happens all too frequently. These same bishops and rectors then hypocritically lecture lay employers for not treating their employees fairly and justly. <BR/><BR/>Even so, <I>Ministeria Quaedam</I> is quite clear on one point:<BR/><BR/>"In accordance with the ancient tradition of the Church, institution to the ministries of reader and acolyte is reserved to men".<BR/><BR/>Once lay ministries were introduced, there was always the possibility that women might exercise them.<BR/><BR/>That could not happen when they conferred clerical status since the clerical status is a paternal - and not maternal - status.<BR/><BR/>This highly important theme gets lost once minor orders are not conferred.<BR/><BR/>The sexual imagery of Orders and of the Church is theologically essential.<BR/><BR/>Just as Christian motherhood is a maternal role and can only be fulfilled by a baptised female, so the clerical role is a paternal one and can, like fatherhood, only be exercised by a baptised male.<BR/><BR/>Failure to understand this, and any subsequent admixture of the roles, fuels, and is fuelled by, a confused understanding of sexuality in Christian theology and a complete misunderstanding of what the late Pope John Paul II called "the theology of the body".<BR/><BR/>Tribunus.Tribunushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17330137792269530812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-1170983900069982112008-10-28T15:06:00.000+00:002008-10-28T15:06:00.000+00:00Fr. Ray,I wish that the Church would stop the cree...Fr. Ray,<BR/><BR/>I wish that the Church would stop the creeping clericalization of the laity via the proliferation of lay "ministries." It confuses the boundary between the priesthood and the laity and has sapped the Church of much of its energy. 50 years ago, lay people were much more involved in the day-to-day spreading of the Word. Today, that has shrunk back to a small, inward-looking group of sanctuary-groupies (readers, extraordinary ministers, etc.)<BR/><BR/>We have forgotten that, as Catholics, we have 2,000 years of tradition and precedent here. We have at our disposal a vast treasure, not only of terminology but also of structures and defined roles, to embody and express the legitimate activities of laypeople in the Church.<BR/><BR/>The term "lay ministry" should be retired. The proper concept that needs to be resurfaced and revived is that of apostolate. This is the authentically Catholic mode of expressing the function of laypeople in the Church. It's well worth reading Pope Paul's decree on the apostolate of the laity, <A HREF="http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19651118_apostolicam-actuositatem_en.html" REL="nofollow"> Apostolicam Actuositatem</A> which explains this concept and its relevance to the modern age.<BR/><BR/>And while we're about it, we should be reviving sodalities, confraternities, archconfraternities and other traditional Catholic structures for facilitating lay participation in the life of the Church.Francishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13769697942265014482noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-39917693932750294842008-10-28T13:57:00.000+00:002008-10-28T13:57:00.000+00:00Yes, it does seem that those 'ministries' which ar...Yes, it does seem that those 'ministries' which are most sought after are those which provide the greatest visibility with the least manual work. In a Catholic church in Canada I found the front row had a sign on it - "Reserved for Ministers of the Word".<BR/><BR/>I really hope this is not passed by the Holy Father - I really feel that the minor orders should be restored and this can only make any such restoration far less likely. Also far less likely would be the possibility of reunion with the Orthodox churches for whom this will demonstrate how fickle the Catholic Church is with regard to its own venerable traditions. <BR/><BR/>The woolly "Catholish" of the language in the proposal suggests that it is motivated less by mature reflection than by wishing to grab a few headlines and disprove the idea that the "Catholic Church hates women".Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16664129156841386638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-29734186137570841092008-10-28T10:35:00.000+00:002008-10-28T10:35:00.000+00:00I wonder if it was not a mistake to abolish the mi...I wonder if it was not a mistake to abolish the minor orders. They were, in my opinion, milestones (if that is quite the right word) for seminarians as they progressed through their years of study on the road to the priesthood. At a stroke, they were suppressed. This can hardly have been an encouragement (and seminarians need encouragement) to persevere.<BR/><BR/>As to the recent suggestion for women lectors, it seems to me there is already enough confusion between a layman or laywoman who reads from the lectionary at Mass and an instituted Lector.<BR/><BR/>Unfortunately, lector and reader mean the same thing ! But there is a matter of pastoral sensitivity here. It might be better, therefore, if readers at Mass refrained from describing themselves as "lectors" when they are in fact not instituted Lectors.<BR/><BR/>I have recently spoken to various young men and women who perform this function, who were horrified at the idea of being instituted Lectors or "Ministers of the Word"<BR/><BR/>In this country, at least, the word "Minister", presumably because it is used by so many Protestant clergymen, suggests a man in Holy Orders. It will only cause further confusion if lay people use it too freely.<BR/> <BR/>As to the many other valuable services people perform outside the liturgy, many of them are undoubtedly performing a ministry, e.g. ministerng to the sick, etc. But I doubt many of these good people would want to be "clericalised" with the title "minister".<BR/><BR/>"Ministers to the sick", "ministers to the poor", etc. Would the Church better perform its mission with such titles ? I doubt it. And, most important of all, how many more souls would be saved by this new proposal ?PeterHWrighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08734936083886678494noreply@blogger.com