tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post826379464375331116..comments2023-12-16T16:17:43.886+00:00Comments on Fr Ray Blake's Blog: Self-absorbed Promethean Neo-pelagianismFr Ray Blakehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05584140126211527252noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-22006248508221607822014-07-04T17:49:16.161+01:002014-07-04T17:49:16.161+01:00Mathew 5:37. Thank you very much.
I truly wish I...Mathew 5:37. Thank you very much.<br /><br />I truly wish I could connect with HHPF but so far all I read<br />confuses me.<br />It is certain he does not care for tradition or traditionalists.<br />For a man of his age and his position he speaks carelessly and too often. Nevertheless, as was printed on the Franciscan's booth at the Boston Gay Pride Parade, <br />"Who Am I To Judge." Tremendously sad.Ranger01https://www.blogger.com/profile/13714410543414645788noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-67773098489908410652014-01-10T06:25:24.181+00:002014-01-10T06:25:24.181+00:00A fine young Hispanic family man collared me. &quo...A fine young Hispanic family man collared me. "What do you think of that Pope 'So-&-So'? He's no good." I finally got so sick of the snide comments and leers of "The Real Catholics", that I made a landscape oriented letter size, laminated poster, with flexible magnetic adhesive backing to mount on my car: 5 of 6 panels (3x2), photos of the immediate aftermath of the Papal assassination attempt. In the remaining one, "In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood". Hebrews 12:4John Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00742625645405600318noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-70540173621759163622013-12-08T17:22:27.151+00:002013-12-08T17:22:27.151+00:00uh...What?
(Phew! On a personal note that was almo...uh...What?<br />(Phew! On a personal note that was almost like trying to read Nathaniel Hawthorne(in a difficult and wordsmith sort of way for me- NOT as far as content and interest level is concerned... Your words were quite full and spoke volumes... unlike my experience of Hathowrne!)platohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02429282716197202042noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-26392714448630150442013-12-02T21:21:34.303+00:002013-12-02T21:21:34.303+00:00New Pope is giving me more headaches than JPII eve...New Pope is giving me more headaches than JPII ever did in his 20 + years of his reign. Lord have mercy. <br /><br />His experience in his local church does not necessarily hold for the Church Universal. <br /><br />From the inside looking out, it's our view of justice that we give to God rightly what is due unto Him (proper worship)...<br /><br />The Truth itself is attractive...we don't need to dress it up and make it fancy. Православный физикhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11313371333531421128noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-83599977992773447872013-12-02T16:19:46.839+00:002013-12-02T16:19:46.839+00:00He or she is a construction added by the translato...He or she is a construction added by the translator. It is not in the original Spanish. Can we stop harping about stylistic word choices in works in translation?<br /><br />Same with the phrasings such as promethean neopelagianism -- maybe it sounds more natural in spanish -- has been a while since I've done much scholarship in spanish, but they tend more towards mythological allusions. Promethean in this context means trying to make things more Godly, more mystical, more otherworldly through our own efforts. Maikihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00136891953810280076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-27667532279667538582013-12-02T16:10:52.809+00:002013-12-02T16:10:52.809+00:00thestrangecouncil - right on the button!
Maybe so...thestrangecouncil - right on the button!<br /><br />Maybe some 'humble' commenters here might find something useful from Susan:<br /><br />http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03kqbgz<br />epsilonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17785182500278281351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-68837770362889614962013-12-02T14:15:30.507+00:002013-12-02T14:15:30.507+00:00There is a passage in Peckler's 'The Unrea...There is a passage in Peckler's 'The Unread Vision: The Liturgical Movement in the United States of America, 1926-55' (p.99) which might explain the Pelagian conumdrum. <br /><br />"The lack of a liturgically based spirituality for CA [Catholic Action], which would suggest that the Church is sanctified through its personal piety, led potentially to a Pelagian view that Christians through personal piety and good works sanctified the Church and built the reign of God."Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16928565599025816303noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-5766650275844027862013-12-02T11:32:07.898+00:002013-12-02T11:32:07.898+00:00It was tough to stay. Liturgical dancing. Not a L...It was tough to stay. Liturgical dancing. Not a Latin Mass within four hours drive of me. At least my parish doesn't have liturgical dancing anymore...not for the past five years or so and I hope it never comes back! Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11679981021081052320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-33067747916610786962013-12-02T10:19:34.530+00:002013-12-02T10:19:34.530+00:00is this a self-absorbed Promethean neo-pelagian ma...is this a self-absorbed Promethean neo-pelagian mass?<br /><br />http://eponymousflower.blogspot.co.nz/2013/12/horror-missae-church-as-play-space-for.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+TheEponymousFlower+(The+Eponymous+Flower)<br /><br />I've also seen a photo of a paddling pool set up in front of the altar. I've also seen a photo of the Pope putting a beach ball on the altar. What could all this evidence mean? A Jesuit conspiracy to liberate the altar from the impoverished and oppressive confines of a land-locked Church and send it on a cruise, maybe around the Sth American coast, perhaps the final destination could be the Bermuda triangle.Our Lady of Good Success-pray for us.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14746510579669229511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-47328017643752650502013-12-02T08:58:57.136+00:002013-12-02T08:58:57.136+00:00I'm glad you defined this, "Self-absorbed...I'm glad you defined this, "Self-absorbed Promethean Neo-Pelagianism".<br /><br />It allows me to name my experience at 'Faith' meetings at Spanish Place in the late 1980s at last.<br /><br />Paradoxically, they seemed to be completely unable to see that their approach differed from Modernism only by content, not what they shared in common: their "self-absorbed promethean neo-pelagian", mindset.<br /><br />The evidence? The majority of the replies to this blog post!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-66603044838325064492013-12-02T03:14:55.390+00:002013-12-02T03:14:55.390+00:00Rebbeca said: I was drawn by the old church too as...Rebbeca said: I was drawn by the old church too as a convert. I wanted to run away when I attended my first no mass.<br /><br />God bless you for adhering to your fight rather than flight instincts (some Masses make the flight almost impossible to fight). For people burdened with the worst of the worst of the NO's may Our Lady give you the faith to see and hear through all the static to the 'periphery', that is the, now not so obvious, clear, on the station, centre, where the Truth is! And, may the faithful, from the Pope to the last one in the pews tire completely with the messes of the new mass and permit the return of Tradition, out in the cold, but knocking gently on the door, 'I've been a waif for fifty years, let Me in.'Our Lady of Good Success-pray for us.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14746510579669229511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-85360566328497333712013-12-02T00:11:45.721+00:002013-12-02T00:11:45.721+00:00One Christmas long ago in the mid-1980s my son, wh...One Christmas long ago in the mid-1980s my son, who was mad for all things Star Trek, asked if he might have a certain Star Trek poster as a Christmas present.<br />The poster was covered with nothing but pinpricks of light (stars in a black space background) which promised the purchaser that if you stared hard enough you would see a 3D image of a Klingon Bird of Prey Warship. <br />When the poster was hung in my son's bedroom I would stare and stare at the thing but to save my life I saw nothing but white dots on a black background.<br />My son professed to see the Warship and even traced the supposed outline of it with his finger for me so I might appreciate this marvel but I saw nothing.<br />When I read of "self-absorbed Promethean Neo-pelagianism" I thought of that supposed 3D Klingon ship that wasn't there.Liam Ronanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01376666519733160167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-9159859620465305602013-12-01T19:40:57.147+00:002013-12-01T19:40:57.147+00:00I think you're trying far too hard to find an ...I think you're trying far too hard to find an intelligent explanation for this verbiage. Francis is a typical leftist poseur, trying to sound smart. He's used the term "promethean" before (like a bad magician, he insists upon repeating his tricks so that soon everyone sees right through him). In the 'America' interview he said "I like listening to Beethoven, but in a Promethean way, and the most Promethean interpreter for me is Furtwängler." What he means is just that Beethoven is loud and can sometimes give him a flutter in the tummy. The Fifth Symphony: Duh-duh-duh-DUHHHHH! You know, like that. So he figures that that's what traditionalist Catholics are getting when they listen to Gabrieli or Palestrina - just some self-indulgent aesthetic pleasure, and snobbish to boot.Dr. Mabusehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01792194424034622756noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-21705864320997885912013-12-01T05:02:03.293+00:002013-12-01T05:02:03.293+00:00I was drawn by the old church too as a convert. I...I was drawn by the old church too as a convert. I wanted to run away when I attended my first no mass.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11679981021081052320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-14562661149268450052013-11-30T23:30:56.757+00:002013-11-30T23:30:56.757+00:00what Cosmos said - agree completely. As a convert ...what Cosmos said - agree completely. As a convert to the Faith, it was the 'Old Church' that drew me - I have to believe that was to work of the Holy Spirit - I read the classics and never doubted everything the 'Old Church' had believed and taught and known (know the Truth and it shall set you free - there's no freedom without Truth) for centuries. I learnt later that 'Old Church' has been pushed to the peripheries. It really sounds like the HF believes the Joachim of Flora stuff, that is:<br /><br />"The Age of the Father, corresponding to the Old Testament, characterized by obedience of mankind to the Rules of God;<br />The Age of the Son, between the advent of Christ and 1260, represented by the New Testament, when Man became the son of God;<br />The Age of the Holy Spirit, impending (in 1260), when mankind was to come in direct contact with God, reaching the total freedom preached by the Christian message. The Kingdom of the Holy Spirit, a new dispensation of universal love, would proceed from the Gospel of Christ, but transcend the letter of it. In this new Age the ecclesiastical organization would be replaced and the Order of the Just would rule the Church. This Order of the Just was later identified with the Franciscan order by his follower Gerardo of Borgo San Donnino. According to Joachim, only in this third Age will it be possible to really understand the words of God in its deepest meanings, and not merely literally. He concluded that this age would begin in 1260 based on the Book of Revelation (verses 11:3 and 12:6, which mention "one thousand two hundred and sixty days"). In this year, instead of the parousia (second Advent of Christ), a new Epoch of peace and concord would begin, thus making the hierarchy of the Church unnecessary.Joachim distinguished between the "reign of justice" or of "law", in an imperfect society, and the "reign of freedom" in a perfect society."<br /><br />I don't believe (and I'm following my conscience here) it is sniping or worthy of condemnation (who is anyone to judge?) to resist the fever of this jeremiah was a bulgfrog giving joy to the world new age sand surfing. <br /><br />'inthestrangecouncil' - have you attended NO lately? Have you seen what has been completely forgotten? Quite apart Latin, prayer, and the Real Presence. How, if the Holy Spirit is calling any boys or men in the pews to a Vocation, that wouldn't be able to hear is over the guitars and bass, or see for the all the girls and mums etc in the sanctuary.Our Lady of Good Success-pray for us.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14746510579669229511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-3847767408609153322013-11-30T15:00:54.170+00:002013-11-30T15:00:54.170+00:00I get the impression that the HF is deliberately l...I get the impression that the HF is deliberately leaving his criticisms very broad, that we might see our own condemnation in them and repent accordingly.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-24105666598413043682013-11-30T14:56:40.524+00:002013-11-30T14:56:40.524+00:00Thus during the papacies of P6, JP2 and B16 there ...Thus during the papacies of P6, JP2 and B16 there was no 'sniping' from "SJ" priests?Sadie Vacantisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04823532366874114366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-10964590105123066752013-11-30T14:40:38.562+00:002013-11-30T14:40:38.562+00:00I am jut not impressed. It sounds like exactly wh...I am jut not impressed. It sounds like exactly what I've been hearing my whole life. And it has always failed to inspire. <br /><br />To me, it makes no sense to preach with words about "not preaching with words, but actions." The irony is incredible. St. Francis attracted people not because he went out to the peripheries, or because he had a proper attitude towards Catholics in difficult pastoral conundrums. He was popular because his life was so completely inexplicable without God, and yet so joyful, that it made others want to believe in God. He was completely obsessed with liturgy and the hierarchy and all the trappings of the Church, he was obsessed with the sacraments, especially the Eucharist-- but he was also obsessed with taking Christ's teaching literally. He never felt the need or desire to pit one against the other. In short, he had faith, hope, and love because he fully believed what Jesus did was true.<br /><br />Other Saints have exhibited various degrees of peace, joy, or courage that were inexplicable without a real belief in God's actual existence and love for us. That was incredibly attractive, their social policies, if any, were completely secondary.<br /><br />Here, in the midst of teaching about how the traditionalists, pro-lifers and others are "majoring on the minors," we are told that we should really be talking about those things that are more central to the Gospel. But instead of going back to the narrative of Jesus life in history and redemtion (they are mentioned tangentially in passing), the emphasis is instead on mercy in pastoral and social policy.<br /><br />To me, quite apart from any theological criticism, the giant problem with all of this post-Concilliar teaching is it seems to try to preach a faith that makes sense without God. It's a giant "here's how to make the world better" movement, with God looming in the background to approve of those who are embracing the best policies.Cosmoshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14199946824127025416noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-19790588428208769322013-11-30T11:01:03.806+00:002013-11-30T11:01:03.806+00:00Unfortunately there's little point in waiting ...Unfortunately there's little point in waiting for the Latin version, as this will only be a translation of the original Spanish. The he/she, his/her constructions so rightly deplored by AP are down to the person who made the English translation; in the Romance languages all nouns are either masculine or feminine; possessive personal pronouns take the gender of the noun they qualify, and not that of the person; and the predominance of the masculine is a grammatical rule.<br /><br />When referring to the mythical demi-god, 'Promethean' is capitalized. With a lower-case 'p' it can mean a) of great size or strength, b) daringly original, c) rebelling against tradition, or d) persecuted yet dauntless. John Nolanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09027156691859606002noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-69665174744391820212013-11-30T07:56:32.379+00:002013-11-30T07:56:32.379+00:00just want to say, very funny viterbo.
I was on a b...just want to say, very funny viterbo.<br />I was on a blog just the other day where some guy was talking in circles with this high sounding language about some issue. one reader commented, who do you think you are reaching with this stuff? Isn't Pope Francis always talking about the Church not turning in on itself? Yet it sounds like he's only talking to theologians etc. not regular people. Every time you turn around someone is saying 'What I think POpe Francis is trying to say here is...' It has gotten so old!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11679981021081052320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-36723063040009077322013-11-30T04:12:03.654+00:002013-11-30T04:12:03.654+00:00p.s. reading 'Evangelii Gaudium', is like...p.s. reading 'Evangelii Gaudium', is like reading the writings of a guru, a sort of christian guru. Nothing should be imposed except those teachings which the author imposes upon his reader. Scripture, the purpose and meaning of which, is directed towards God Almighty, is suddenly co-opted and pointed towards the human being; it is a long long letter on how the author thinks God thinks we should be nowadays, which is to say, not the same as yesterday. It's like they've taken the sometimes translation of 'I Am that I Am', as 'I will be what I will be', which is Rabbi Sacks famous 'future tense' play on words when speaking of Judaism; only EG is the future untense - we must always 'appear' to be what EG prescribes - appearance is very important in this text - an appearance that will appeal to the world, that is; one must always appear joyful, peaceful, tolerant; evangilisation 'should not impose the truth but appeal to freedom.' The author is the teacher of proper reading, of the Church, the bible, the world, other religions, of people building, and all humbly.<br /><br />p.s.s the 'masonic meccabalist' from my previous post is a reference to the higher degrees in the lodge where one turns away (in a supposed act of religious indifference or inclusivity) from the Church and turns towards the Mosque.Our Lady of Good Success-pray for us.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14746510579669229511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-7436680691858047642013-11-30T03:00:01.227+00:002013-11-30T03:00:01.227+00:00If 'evangelii' reflects the smell of the s...If 'evangelii' reflects the smell of the sheep, it seems they are probably masonic meccabalists, with a philanthropic application towards the peripheral, and a polyhedronal polysemic equanimity of faith approach with a cultural, but humble, bias towards a new vision of a post-catholic poly-christian democracy utopically cohabiting, defacto and liberated from spherical authoritarianism, with the multiplicity of the Creator's woman-born in a polycreedal hermeneutic of the Noahide or post-Noahidal, or pre-Noahidal, as preferred, convenant with that which is to come.<br /><br /><br />or not. The document is no longer available on the Vatican website - you have to download the PDF and you cannot save it unless you change the file name. According to wiki 'Evangelii Gaudium is not written in an academic style but "in language that is both easily understood and captivating." Why do I get the impression people keep looking at the ground and saying, 'the sky', 'the sky'?Our Lady of Good Success-pray for us.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14746510579669229511noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-47220870557014604942013-11-29T23:12:44.215+00:002013-11-29T23:12:44.215+00:00Let's face it, the people 'on the peripher...Let's face it, the people 'on the periphery' are not going to have the least clue as to what the Pope is saying in this exhortation and most Catholics will only be slightly more enlightened (including me). We need CLARITY above all in these times but we are not getting it.Lepantohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02487748842744745860noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-67549864319749633702013-11-29T16:35:32.641+00:002013-11-29T16:35:32.641+00:00Tim SJ is exactly right! The nasty sniping comment...Tim SJ is exactly right! The nasty sniping comments here, about a pope who is trying to reach out, are totally unfair to a priest host who is trying to be fair, and humbly showing us all how to take the best out of what is presented to us.<br /><br />Woody said:<br />"IN fact, in the Eastern Christian world, the monastery is the center of the paradigm of holiness, and it is up to us faithful to make pilgrimage there to receive spiritual direction and consolation. "<br /><br />A recent request by a young person I know to visit a monastery on the northern coast of this island (whose charism is hospitality) around Christmas received the curt response "we're not open" nothing more!epsilonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17785182500278281351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-31069882.post-9595753634883562142013-11-29T13:10:33.644+00:002013-11-29T13:10:33.644+00:00I have often wondered how many potential saints wa...I have often wondered how many potential saints walked away from the Church when they first heard that Peter had a violent streak, was boastful, used bad language when in a tight corner, and lacked the moral fibre to stand his ground on at least two occasions, one of them after Pentecost. It's all in the documents you know, though I don't want to gossip, or disparage anyone,<br /> John hickeyjohnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01089782238509809309noreply@blogger.com