Wednesday, January 27, 2016

Future of the TLM Mass

There has been a little bit of discussion about the future of the TLM on the net. One of the things I have noticed is that our congregation here is getting younger.

Just before Christmas one of our main supporters Mike Telford* died and his funeral took place in Eastbourne on the eve of Christmas Eve celebrated in the Rite he lived for by our Vicar General. Mike would have loved that. He and his wife Gwen had moved back there, she was too sick to attend. Mike had been on dialysis several times a week and had even so at first driven the 60 miles here and back to Horley most Sundays. Then, when he could no longer drive had caught the train here, which can be a little erratic on a Sunday. He and Gwen his wife then moved to Eastbourne, their health grew even worse and as Gwen became even frailer and it became much harder for them to get here. I am so pleased that I have Mike's brother's breviary.

There are several others who are of a similar age who come here from similar distances to Mike Gwen. Many of the older attendees here had been taught by experience to be wary of the clergy and never introduced themselves, they loved the old Mass and suffered a great deal for their love, as they become increasingly older, the become more dependant on others and slowly fade away.
The other group of people who we lose are young men, at three who attended the Traditional have discovered vocations, two to the priesthood and another to a contemplative monastery, I offer Mass for the weekly.

These are the losses, on the gains, we have families with younger children. Those who home school come to the Sunday Latin Mass, and occasionally to the weekday one on Friday evening. We are the only parish in the diocese which offers the Traditional Mass weekly on a Sunday, the congregation for low Mass is rarely above 40, it is at the non-Traditional time of 6.30pm. A few people come along to it because it is the last Mass in Brighton and Hove's twelve  parishes. Some, but not most, if they can learn to deal with the silence of it become addicted. At sung Masses, like Candlemas (at 7.30pm) there is a larger congregation, our choir are bi-ritual and sing more or less the same as they would at our 10.30 Sunday Mass, I am quite proud of them, they make a beautiful noise. 

The problem we have now is finding servers, who can serve with a modicum of recollection. Our older servers are growing stiff, the younger one's move away. I was delighted one of them said he was moving out of Brighton but would make the two hour train journey to get here for Mass on a Sunday, I am loathed to ask those who have served at previous Masses to return just so those at the Traditional Mass can have their celebration. At the moment our Traditional Masses future doesn't look too good, but it is surprising what an Ave or two can do. 

At the heart of the problem is the generational switch, older devotees are dying off, the young are not necessarily less committed but their lives are often less clearly marked out, the pressure of work restricts their flexibility, one of our servers apparently has been made to work early in the morning so even 6.30pm Sunday evening is too late for him!

It is unfortunate because the monthly Traditional Mass at local West Grinstead, which has been celebrated through the dark pre-Summorum Pontificum days. has recently been suspended, the priest drove 50 miles to get there and only 8 people turned up.

*Mike is the white haired server on the Gospel side of the picture - pray for him.

54 comments:

Rick said...

Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum, Benedicta tu in mulieribus et benedictus fructus ventris tui Jesus . . .

Athelstane said...

Thanks for your reflection, Fr. Blake. It reflects so many things I see in our neck of the woods across the Pond here in America - especially the part about generational turnover. We do seem to be reaching a point where the initial "indult"" generation that managed to get so many of the older TLM's and TLM communities going is now starting to slip away. Young families *are* replacing them, but in some places more than others.

The East Grinstead situation is worth noting. It does help illustrate how hard to is to sustain a Mass that is not a weekly Mass, that is not a Sunday morning weekly Mass. The overwhelming Catholic experience of Mass is on Sunday mornings, every week; when a TLM is offered outside that range, with less regularity, the difficulty in building it ratchets up. In the 80's and 90's, this difficulty could be borne to some degree because there were so few options available to those Catholics who craved the traditional rite. This I think is part of the problem that's at work in the declining attendance at the monthly Sunday evening Mass celebrated by the American priest blogger (Msgr. Pope) whose essay this month started this entire discussion.

Pastor in Monte said...

So sorry to hear of the death of Michael Telford! God rest his soul. I both liked and respected him, and would have come to his funeral had I known. Bishop Francis Walmsley in his autobiography records an amusing meeting with him on a plane.

David O'Neill said...

Apropos the serving situation. When my wife & I were LMS reps (age caught up with me having to retire - reluctantly - at 75) Theresa used to approach regulat attendees at our EF Masses & ask if they would like to learn how to serve, I would then train them. This resulted in 2 young men virtually returning to the Church with 1 now studying for the Permanent Diaconate. 2 others still serve although 1 is now at Oxford University & we see him when the university is down. Another 1 is discerning his vocation but going off to Japan to teach English. Additionally we have several young men who can & will serve when required as well as 1 or 2 (longer in the tooth) who can step in if necessary.
The crux is to have someone confident enough to approach the men initially. We have a saying her 'Oop North' - "Shy bairns get nowt" meaning if you don't ask you don't get!!!

Sixupman said...

In Salford Diocese there exists one Sunday TLM at 16:45, Celebrated at St. Chad's by Oratory clergy in Manchester. The attendance 40 plus. Previously, they were are The Holy Name, located in the centre of university land - then the attendance was circa 100. The students had available, to them, the total panoply of TLM and NOM liturgy and responded accordingly. The change, for political reasons, deprived the student body of such. The Jesuits returned - as did the ubiquitous 'Table'altar.

Cosmos said...

Our community is one in the Southern United States where there are a lot of young families and the Church is slowly growing. We have over 100 people regularly now. The real secret to our success is a monthly pot luck lunch after mass (10:45, almost always low) where all the kids go crazy and the adults make sure to try to get to know one another. Its the first true parish-life many of us have every experienced.

If their is a barrier to faster growth it is the fact that many of the "conservative" Catholics who like the TLM don't want to be estranged from the central life of the Diocese. People don't want to be seen as implicitly judging the Church by avoiding the normal parishes. It's just a step too far for many.

The Church is also in an extremely high-crime area that very few would ever enter otherwise.

Long-Skirts said...

STARKENBURG

The Holy Mass that cannot die
Was said amidst the oaks
While pin-oak leaves came floating down
Around the simple folks

Who knelt upon the acorn floor
All dotted nutty brown
The acorns cracked and old knees snapped
Yet still there was no sound...

But the tinkling of the golden bells
As the White Host Son rose high
On priestly limbs like mighty oaks
They branched up to the sky

And in that wood I laughed with joy
Amongst the souls bowed down
For the mighty oak was once a nut
That merely held its ground.

So Christian souls like acorn nuts
Must burrow all around
And be the seed that sprouts new oaks
On consecrated ground...

Where the Holy Mass, that cannot die
Is said around the oaks
While pin-oak leaves come floating down
Amidst the mighty folks!

Paul Hellyer said...

It is disgraceful how the traditional Mass of the Catholic Church has been treated by the bishops, the very people who should have defended it. It has been pushed aside and made very very difficult to hear. Here in Leeds the situation is dire. When I die and many of my generation (pre Vatican2) Who will support the TLM? There are no green shoots in Leeds to carry on tradition. Only the SSPX seem to hold the key.

Et Expecto said...

I think that the reference should be to West Grinstead, and not East Grinstead. Although in the same Diocese, they are a long way apart.

Matthew Roth said...

My parish is in much the same boat. I'm at a parish that has had the Mass regularly since before Ecclesia Dei adflicta (the pastor was rather proud of starting it before he actually asked for & received the indult). One of our older servers, an older Vietnam veteran, passed away last summer. The gentleman who is also a Vietnam veteran in charge of organizing servers has more or less passed it on to men in their 40s and 50s. I'm at uni, so it's hard for me to "get in on the action," so to speak, but I am one of the 2 principal MCs (I asked someone who could teach me, and I said since the usual MC at the time, now at Clear Creek, was an instituted acolyte and could serve as subdeacon, I could MC and my persistence made 3 Solemn High Masses happen that would not have otherwise been celebrated as such). There are younger families, but they have small boys for the most part, and the older ones are only now getting into serving (we had to goad the oldest boy into using the thurible! Now he does it weekly.).

Our pastor is committed, and we have an outstanding choral program for both the new Mass and the TLM. Usually, an ad every few months in the bulletin turns up more interest. Now, what's really funny is when it's really rainy or snowy, the rural dwellers can't come due to the poor road conditions, but we never have trouble getting servers!

Fr Ray Blake said...

Expecto,
Quite right, always get it wrong - corrected

Pelerin said...

You are not the only one Fr to muddle the two up. A few months back the Westminster magazine 'Oremus' made the same mistake! There could still be people wandering around East Grinstead trying to find Hilaire Belloc's grave!

I had no idea that the West Grinstead parish had been celebrating the EF Mass since before SP. However as it is in such a remote place for non drivers I could not have attended there. We are truly blessed in Brighton - thanks to you and Fr Bruno.

northernhermit said...

I have not seen a Traditional Latin Mass that I could attend since Vatican 2 was implemented. I have read about them on the internet, but to attend one would mean getting on an airplane. Hard to believe the Latin Mass was suppressed to such a great extent and so quickly.

Michael Crabb said...

As Pelerin alluded to, perhaps one of the biggest obstacles to 1962 Missal attendance, based on my experience of A&B, is not theological but simply one of logistics. It does seem to be something of a postcode lottery. The Shrine of Our Lady of Consolation is pretty much inaccessible unless you drive, and travelling around the south for Masses can become a very expensive habit indeed. Perhaps my train fares would be better given to a more deserving party, I often find myself questioning if I am endeavouring to attend these Masses over nearer valid ones for God or myself...

Sadie Vacantist said...

I don't believe trads when they claim a preference for the TLM. The only possible reason to support its reintroduction is for the benefit of the clergy. The disappearance of the TLM has coincided with a diminution of the sacramental life of the Church and the abandonment of evangelical fervour. It is for the reversal of the aforementioned rather than personal taste or preference that I want the Novus Ordo replaced. No coexistence is possible between the two rites.

Physiocrat said...

I wonder what would happen if you did the 10.30 Sunday Mass as a TLM? Most of the changeover could be made piece-by-piece.

Jacobi said...

The Church in UK, Europe and USA continues to decline in Mass attendance and priests. Clusters will get smaller.

The reason is that the Pauline Mass while being valid has proved to be a failure. Young people, the Catholic future simply do not attend so marriages and baptisms will continue to decline. African priests are needed in Africa and will not be a solution.

The Gregorian Mass I occasionally get to is different. The last time it had a young congregation, 50% female and a quarter of the 50 congregation were children. That is small but healthy.

But the Mass must be on Sunday morning and regular. That means that that all priests who wish to use the Gregorian liturgy must organise and insist on doing so, not just FSSP etc.

Statistics show that in France inside 20 years there will be more Traditional priests than others. I suspect that will be so throughout Europe. Remaining Catholics will have accept this so the quicker they are switched back to a full choice including the tradition meaningful Mass, the better.

Nicolas Bellord said...

If there is a decline in attendances at TLM masses are there any statistics to show whether the decline is any greater than with NO masses? It may well be less which would say something.

The problem is why do Catholics not attend Sunday masses. The answer is quite simple. Why bother? Nothing is a sin any more and we are all going to heaven anyway according to many of our Bishops.

Gungarius said...

Thirty years ago my supervisor made the same mistake and accidentally instructed one of our more militant members of staff to put up an external telephone at West Grinstead station. He discovered his error when an outraged householder rang up to complain after stopping said member of staff fixing a telephone to his house wall and being given the supervisors number when challenging him. (West Grinstead station closed in the 1960s)

I have returned to regular NO Mass after several years attending the EF. To be honest I'm quite happy with it now. I think that now there is a proper transalation that has helped a lot and oriented it in a more digified way. There is a nagging feeling in the back of my mind that, particularly in the high mass, to some extent Ceasar was being worshipped at Gods expense in the EF (Ceaser being a reference to the Catholic Kings and Emperors who were deposed or emasculated between the French Revolution and the end of World War 2).

I'm coming to the conclusion that Vatican 2 were right to get rid of the rigid Formality and Pomp and Ceremony that re,minds one of the court of a grand Emperor; but also in the process threw out some of the mystery of the Mass and left it too superficial unless conducted very carefully - which alas was not the case in the 70s onwards in many places. Especially with the rubbish (indeed almost heretical) translation we had.

Paul Hellyer said...

I agree with you about the high Mass.It is overly elaborate and comes from a past age. The kissing of hands etc. seems unessesary pomp and has lost all its meaning. There is certainly an urgent need to amalgamate the NO and the TLM into one. We can't continue with Catholics being divided with two rites. It is very bad and weakens the Church in the world.

Fr Ray Blake said...

Paul
I think you misunderstand the nature of both the multi faceted Catholic Church - even the Latin Church has more than just two rites - and I think you misunderstand the nature of worship too.

Paul Hellyer said...

Fr I think different rites come from different ethnic roots. The rite for us Western Europeans is mainly the Latin rite. Now the problem as I see it is that each of the two rites in the west the NO and the TLM tend to divide the Church on doctrinal grounds. There are the traditionalists who believe that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Jesus Christ. The other side thinks it 'subsists' in the Catholic Church. One side believes matrimony is for the procreation of children. The other thinks it's for love. Just two examples. So one side will support the TLM because it is the traditional rite of the Church but also because it supports traditional doctrine. The NO did not arise through the pious faith of the people but through a committee of of revolutionaries bent on changing the Church. And they have succeeded.
I may not understand the nature of worship but I know it does not require the priest to be facing us while he acts in the person of Our Lord performing the most sacred actions in time and eternity.

Thomas said...

@Paul Hellyer, I think your characterization of the Ordinary and Extraordinary Forms of the Roman Rite standing for or coming from contradictory versions of Catholic doctrine is mistaken and confused, and is in itself an invidious and divisive perception.

Those who attend Mass in the Novus Ordo do not thereby deny that the Catholic Church is the one true Church of Jesus Christ. I believe it wholeheartedly. The magisterium has been clear that this is the authentic meaning of the relevant phrase in Lumen Gentium, whatever the intention of some people during the Vatican Council. The Church of Christ subsists (exists and has its being) on earth on the Catholic Church, it also subsists in the souls in Purgatory, and in the saints in heaven.

Even more emphatically, the Mass nowhere teaches that Marriage is only for love not for procreation. The Magisterium continues to teach very clearly what it has always taught, that marriage is for both, and that these "ends" are inseparable. It is true that many people don't accept and frequently don't understand this teaching, but it's got nothing to do with which rite of Mass they attend. It may be true that those who look feel attached to the Extraordinary Form are more likely as a rule to also accept the Church's moral teaching in its fullness, but I know quite a number of couples who got to ordinary parish (NO) masses and who are faithful to the teaching of Humanae Vitae.

However, I do agree that some real mutual influence and learning between the two forms of Mass would be a

Thomas said...

I meant to finish the last sentence of my post: "a welcome thing".

[... The nature of the comms box and ID verification system online really doesn't help with typing and proof reading - although I know typos and errors annoy the ex-teacher in Fr. Hunwicke, I think Fr. Ray may be a little more merciful about such things (with a respectful and cheeky smile to both the good fathers :) ]

Paul said...

The High Mass was formerly the norm, not Low Mass. None of the ceremonies in the High Mass have lost their meaning; it is our generation that hasn't been instructed in the liturgy that has lost the meaning of the various ceremonies through neglect! But it can be found through parallels to the Eastern rites and in the older books having a right appreciation of liturgical worship (the Summa, for example).

Rod George said...

The future of the TLM will depend upon priests who dedicate themselves to it. In too many instances the TLM is reliant on priests who are also comfortable with the Novus Ordo. This can only cause confusion to people who are experiencing the TLM for the first time as they may not fully appreciate the differences between the two rites. The more priests dedicate themselves exclusively to the TLM the more people will be attracted to it which can only be beneficial for the future of the church.

Nicolas Bellord said...

I think Paul Hellyer does have a point although I agree more with Thomas. There is a danger of division.

Many of us do not have a choice between a NO and a TLM mass and I think there is a certain importance to sticking with one's local parish unless it gets unbearable! Fortunately I go to a local Convent where the NO is done reasonably well. I would hope for a convergence between the two forms. Perhaps it can be done slowly - sanctus bell, ad orientem, altar rails, communion on the tongue, use of missals, better singing etc.

Paul Hellyer said...

Thomas. You are right Lumen Gentium does say that the "Church of God subsists in the Catholic Church" But this is quite wrong. The Church of God IS the Catholic Church If the Church of God subsists in the Catholic Church there must then be two entities, the Catholic Church and the Church of God. Perhaps over time the Church of God may subsist in some other 'church'. This teaching is crazy.
I don't say that all who attend the NO are liberals and don't adhere faithfully to the doctrines of the Catholic Church. I suppose it depends on the parish and the parish Priest. Some Catholics move parish because they can't stand the lack of faith in the sermons or the protestantised liturgy. With the TLM the character of the priest is not important. He is mostly anonymous and silent prayer is the main feature.
We really must try and amalgamate the two. For starters Holy Communion in the hand must be abolished immediately.It is an abomination. Then restore the altar rails and kneeling for Holy Communion. Then let the priest face ad orientem as required.
Oh what a mess the Church is in ! !

Fr Ray Blake said...

Paul,
'Subsists' is splendidly ambiguous. What most of the Fathers understood was indeed the Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus Christ but it also exists outside of that visibly entity, wherever elements proper to it are present: like the sacraments or the scriptures or the profession of the Name of Jesus.

Paul Hellyer said...

Fr.Yes ambiguity was intentional. I was in Holland before Christmas. Mass was unrecognisable due to the effects of the Council. No one knelt. Not even for the consecration.There were no kneelers any way. The Epistle was replaced by a fairy story about a cobbler who made some shoes for baby Jesus or some such silly tale. This supplanted sacred scripture. This sort of thing will make its way over here due to lax discipline and loss of faith.
Oh what a mess the Church is in !!

Paul Hellyer said...

Following on re. The parish in Holland. Did I attend a Catholic church that Sunday? Was the true Church subsisting in it or was it the true Church but just a bit disfigured?
A radical return to the Faith and the TLM would end all these aberrations.
Pity poor Holland.

Lourdesman said...

No future for the Tridendtine mass. Available only in heaven. No one on earth with power or authority to say it. But of course, you must believe in the Holy Ghost, the Holy Catholic Church to know that.

Gungarius said...

Paul - that event in Holland is nothing to do with the Council - what went on was simply Heretical.

Savonarola said...

If Catholics no longer go to Mass because they have no concern for sin and believe they are going to heaven anyway, maybe the problem lies in the idea ingrained over centuries that going to Mass is primarily a remedy for sin. If we cannot present our faith in any more positive way, why should anyone bother with it?

Jacobi said...

Holland is a basket case. First went to Mass there circa 1956 When the plate circulated twice, assumed it was a second collection. But it went on circulating throughout the Mass and if I remember right some of the locals actually continued to contribute. Nut cases!

Me, I was fascinated by the horrific paintings of hell over the altar.

Hope you have been in touch Father with other Gregorian priests? 20 years and you will be the Church!

Lourdesman said...

Thank you very much for allowing my comment. It amazes me that so many of those who publicise themselves as Catholic bloggers will not allow even pertinent comments on their blogs. The very least all bloggers should be able to do is defend the subject in which they seem to be expert. Now their is no greater science in this earth than the Divine Science because what does it profit a man to gain the whole world yet lose his own soul. At bottom every Catholic whether blogger or not should be a potential soul-saver. Without the Holy Catholic faith it is impossible to please God. God can give us no greater gift. It is to be defended to the death as all those who make up the Church Triumphant and the Church Suffering do to this very day. Thanks again.

Nicolas Bellord said...

"the idea ingrained over centuries that going to Mass is primarily a remedy for sin"

Savonarola: What evidence do you have for that statement? Attendance at Sunday Mass is to fulfill the third commandment. The penny catechism says:

The sacrifice of the Mass is offered for four ends: first, to give supreme honour and glory to God; secondly, to thank Him for all His benefits; thirdly, to satisfy God for our sins and to obtain the grace of repentance; and fourthly, to obtain all other graces and blessing through Jesus Christ.

Cosmos said...

Sadie said, "I don't believe trads when they claim a preference for the TLM."

I absolutely like the TLM better. If we are talking just on the level of preference, I think the NO is busy, and boring, dumbed-down, and seems cobbled together. It draws way to much attention to the participants, lecturns, ministers, etc. It's just one more expression of the mediocrity I see everywhere.

Gungaris said, "I'm coming to the conclusion that Vatican 2 were right to get rid of the rigid Formality and Pomp and Ceremony that re,minds one of the court of a grand Emperor..."

VII did nothing of the sort. A bunch of idealogues did that. Jesus is the Grand Emperor. We are shifting our worship from worldly princes to the true king.

Paul said, "I agree with you about the high Mass.It is overly elaborate and comes from a past age."

Well, so much for tradition and to hell with what our anscestors gave us, we're the measure of all things now! And why on Earth would you want to make anything in the image of this age. Walk into a modern museum or turn on the TV. We've lost our minds. By far the best part of the TLM is that it is not a product of this boring, corrupt generation.

Savonarola said...

Part of the reason is what you said yourself, Mr. Bellord: 'The problem is why do Catholics not attend Sunday masses. The answer is quite simple. Why bother? Nothing is a sin any more and we are all going to heaven anyway according to many of our Bishops.'

Sadie Vacantist said...

@cosmos

I don't believe you. It is for the benefit of the clergy that I want the NO replaced by the TLM not for my own (or your) tastes and preferences. The Church has degenerated into a supermarket with the laity becoming consumers.

Reintroduce the TLM and limit reception of communion to the aged, sick, handicapped and dying.

Lourdesman said...

It takes two priests to say mass - the human one and the One who is both Priest and Victim. The Invisible Priest does not turn up at the beckoning of heretics who have abandoned the Catholic faith 50 years ago or those who never had it to begin with.
"Faith alone will remain" as Our Lady warned at La Salette in 1846. That is true. The only Divine sacrament remaining is that of Baptism which is so important that even an atheist can administer it provided he/she does what the Catholic Church does. The Holy Ghost does not baptise into heretical societies such as the Vatican humanist society with its seven new human sacraments of Paul 6. The Vatican cult is just another branch of the one world ecumenical church where Liberty, Equality and Fraternity over-rules all.

Paul Hellyer said...

This article is appropriate to this discussion.

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.co.uk/2016/02/op-ed-conversation-that-must-be-had.html?m=1

Gungarius said...

Cosmos said "VII did nothing of the sort. A bunch of idealogues did that. Jesus is the Grand Emperor. We are shifting our worship from worldly princes to the true king."

I think that is actually the core of the problem. That is a dark ages view of God and pretty negative. That we are worthless useless peasants who must obey at all times, scrape and bow or be thrown into the furnace. In any case we all ought to really be thrown in hell anyway because we are so dreadful - but God has graciously decided to commute this to several tens of years in Purgatory if we jump through various hoops. A situation dark ages and medieval monarchs exploited to the full to place themselves In Loco Deus.

Yes God is the almighty one, but he is not a capricious tyrant who makes arbitary decisions from on high and we are not worthless serfs. Jesus talked with us and ate with the least of us (or at least those alive at the time). I respect and love God for what He is and what He has done, not because he is an eye in the sky noting if I have stepped on the cracks on the pavement and throwing me into hell if I don't repent of stepping on the cracks on the pavement before I die - whatever else good I have done in my life.

I never found the Low Mass EF divisive, unfortunatalely some of its more rigourous adherents are very phariseeical and divisive, looking down at the NO and people who attend it for basically not being rigorous enough. Many seem to be nomadic and unintegratanle into normal parish life, indeed the extreme ones seem like Catholic Amish, dressing and living like it is still the 1950s and keeping their children out of school teaching them at home in case someone teaches them sex education; at which point their faith will apparently explode (which dosen't seem to say much for the strength and resilience of their faith).

At times I wonder if some of them have notebooks and record four faults every time something isn't done quite correctly judging by after Mass discussions.

I think at the root of it is that they have a medieval view of God still and to be honest I smell more than a whiff of Jansenism.

Fr Ray Blake said...

I am not sure where 'emperor worship' is the text of liturgy: not in the prayers, perhaps in the scriptures, maybe more so in the Bugnini lectionary than in the EF. Could anyone enlighten me?

Perhaps it is in the reverence to the Blessed Sacrament, or in the reverences to the priest but then VII reminds us that the Christ is present in the priest, in the proclaimed word and in the congregation. The pre-reformed rite seems to give more reverence to these 'other presenences' than the newer form, was this wrong?

Catholic Mission said...


The priests who offer the TLM are not allowed to affirm in public exlusive salvation in the Catholic Church. So the ecclesiology of the TLM today in England is not the same as in pre-Council of Trent times.
You Fr.Blake would not say that every one needs to fornally enter the Church, with faith and baptism, to avoid Hell and go to Heaven, and there are no exceptions. Yet this was how St.Robert Bellarmine and numerous saints offered the TLM. Vatican Council II says it isn AG 7 and LG 14.
So when bishops like even the good Athanasius Schneider want the TLM with political correctness it is a bad example for the young people.
No one is preaching membership in the Church being necessary for salvation even though Vatican Council II says this and this was part of the TLM ecclesiology for centuries.
You also, have to look after No.1.

Bishop Schneider let us know what you believe on exclusive salvation. You are a shepherd.
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2016/02/bishop-schneider-let-us-know-what-you.html


The basic error of the traditionalists and sedevacantists in the interpretation of Vatican Council II : the reason many have chosen sedevacantism is not being discussed
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2016/01/the-basic-error-of-traditionalists-and.html

Paul Hellyer said...

Perhaps the teaching is that membership of the Catholic Church is necessary to be Certain of salvation. Whereas outside the Church salvation is uncertain. Is this how the teaching should be understood?

Sixupman said...

On present projections there is to be a decimation of active diocesan clergy. Bishops promote not vocations but a lay integrated church of permanent deacons. The excuse will then arise for such deacons to be fully ordained and opening the door to married clergy. Franciscus' "decentralisation' policy will then render Mother Church akin to the construction of the Anglican Community with belief created by 'synodical government'. As with the Anglican Community congregations will fade away with little if anything left - that position is already widespread in numerous diocese. What need of diocese or bishops then?

But somehow the Traditional orders, semi-detached, will remain and from that base a resurgence will take place based upon the Tridentine and like rites.

The NOM was created with malice aforethought and implemented entirely with out Charity - persecuted clergy witness to the same. The congregations were lied to, as perhaps exposed by BXVI. The issue was not the vernacular, as suggested, but the belief embodied in the 'Old Rite'. After all, the published lay missals all contained the vernacular side-by-side with the Latin. In 71 years the CTS [London] published 6,750,000 copies of the "A Simple Prayer Book", on top of that there were, probably multi-thousands of pocket "Daily Missals" and larger such containing the Daily Offices. [Those same 'Offices' could then be heard, daily, on BBC Choral Evensong.] Multiply the English situation by the like publications duplicated throughout the World. Therefore, it became doubly necessary to destroy the usefulness of the Tridentine Missals - by rendering them, potentially, useless by changing the Lectionary. And so it came to pass. The NOM 'church' cannot survive because of the nature of its foundation.

To make it simple: compare the words of the Ablutions in the 'Old Rite' with those of the NOM "... After Communion" - which is more expressive of the true Faith? Ash Wednesday is upon us: consider The Tract for that and some succeeding days in Lent - where my that be related in the NOM? Or in the 'Old Rite' "Incensing": " ...... Pone , Domine ...... .". These and a myriad of other most profound of prayers are not reflected in the NOM.

The NOM 'Church' will not survive, because it has driven out the unwashed, the sinners, recalcitrants, et al. Who, previously, had all encountered true "Mercy" in the 'Old Rite'

Catholic Mission said...

Perhaps the teaching is that membership of the Catholic Church is necessary to be Certain of salvation. Whereas outside the Church salvation is uncertain. Is this how the teaching should be understood?

Lionel:
The doctrinal teaching with the Traditional Latin Mass before the Council of Trent was that membership in the Catholic Church is necessary to be certain of salvation, since outside the Church there is no salvation.
_________________________


If any pope or religious, uses an irrational premise and inference to interpret magisterial documents, including Vatican Council II, the conclusion has to be irrational, non traditional- and heretical.
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2016/02/if-any-pope-or-religious-uses.html

Paul Hellyer said...

You are so right. But it will take many years before the true expession of the Catholic faith will return to our parishes. Meanwhile we must suffer the lack of reverence of a committee made liturgy.

Paul Hellyer said...

Yes you're right on the unwashed. The Catholic Mass has become very middle class. The Church has lost its precious ones and sadly it's the work of the administration (clergy) that did it.

Gungarius said...

What I was trying to get at is that the pomp and circumstance in the Old Rite High Mass, hand kissing and all the rest, was projecting an image of God as a medieval monarch. Like Henry the VIII, doing what he liked, and casting us into Hell on a whim if we don't do exactly what he says all the time, and him having to be appeased and bowed and scraped to. It seems to encourage Jansenism in this age and was undoubtably exploited by Medieval Kings (essentially hereditary dictators) as they appointed themselves as the anointed vice regent in Gods place in secular matters.

This was reflected also in ever more elaborate polyphonic compositions of the Mass written to be performed for the Austrian and other emperors in Europe, turning the Mass into a concert that celebrates the earthly King, as much if not more than, the King of Kings.

You still see this echoed in the revolting practice of some High Masses in central London being advertised in the catholic press prominently listing the choice of music that will be sung (probably by a choir that are being paid to do so not doing it out of love of God). Sorry but that is quite wrong and exactly the sort of thing that Vatican II was trying to put a stop too. The Mass is not a concert for giving gratification to the sense of hearing.

Sadly the baby went out with the bathwater and the Mass greviously attacked in the aftermath of the council. The faults with the new though do not mean there were not issues that quite rightly needed addressing in the first place and the sixties a time of society going far too far the other way, most obviously shown in their legacy of brutalist architecture, probably wasn't a very good time to attempt such reforms

Unfortunately, all too often in my experience, the uber adherents of the old rite seem to bear witness to the reason the council looked into the liturgy in the first place. Which I think is one reason that it has not spread as widely as it might have done after the Moto Proprio, with people going to both within a parish quite happily.

I am aware of a parish with a large sliding door to a hall at the back of the church. After the former parish priest started a EF Mass, it was opened after the service (as is often the case) so people could go through for tea and biscuits.

One of the traddies - who was not a parishoner - took exception to this (presumably because it meant people would be talking in the same room as our Lord) and, without explanation, slammed the door shut violently with a face like granite.

Most of the traddies talked among themselves about things like theories relating to the third secret of Fatima, the iniquities of the England and Wales bishops, homeschooling and the iniquities of sex education in catholic schools, whether one should receive communion if the hosts have come from the tabernacle and were therefore consecrated in a new rite Mass, the latest doings of "Bishop" Williamson (peace be upon him) etc., and few talked to the parishoners, some of who probably couldn't believe what they were overhearing. This, particularly the door incident, repulsed the parishoners and few attended the Latin Mass after that. What better negative sign can you give to others than slamming a door shut in front of them?

Sadly instead of people attending both new and old rite happily as different but equal rites of one Mass, it instead has become either or with very few attending both, and while there is inevitably a modernist cabal that opposes it in a parish, the behaviour of many of the hardline old rite enthusiasts has sadly given that modernist cabal every excuse to say "I told you so"

Fr Ray Blake said...

Gungarius,
The hand/object kissing, probably goes back to the beginning of the Roman Rite, it is certainly pre-Roman. My predecessor here in the 1930s-50 who had been the first MC, (head hunted from one of the Roman basilicas) at Westminster Cathedral and devised the ritual structure and style that remained until the 'reforms' abolished kissing but I think he abolished something intrinsic to the Rite itself, which is essentially one of intimacy, affection, reverence.

Nicolas Bellord said...

Gungarius: What is wrong with the concept of a medieval monarch? And what about modern monarchs? I rather think they are a good idea.

Jacobi said...

As for details of ritual, I think if you went to a Catholic Mass in the 2nd or 3rd century you would find kissing of hands and such ritual. It represented the Real Presence and the capacity, a frightening idea as one priest I know has pointed out, to be “ In persona Christi “and to bring that Presence about.

With some, it can be overdone and become an too much of end in itself. There are other ways to be involved in the Mass, such as St John XXIII saying the Rosary. The important thing is to be there, to know and concede to what is happening, whether you are fluent in Latin, or use a missal with translation, or are happy just staying in your pew and saying the Rosary.