Saturday, June 18, 2016

In or Out?

I've been listening to my parishioners ....

.... and I am still undecided


Pelerin said...

Thanks to Fr Ray for pointing out this debate by Catholic Voices. I had only recently grumbled to a friend that most of us just don't know enough about both sides to make an informed decision. I fear that many will just toss a coin to decide this very important issue or rely on their prejudices for 'anything foreign.' I had no idea that this debate was available to watch on Youtube.

Tim Stanley is as usual very eloquent and has some good points. I also listed to MP Tom Tugendhat on the following video standing for 'Remain'. It was interesting to see that when Tim finished all in the audience seemed to be clapping whereas when the other speaker finished many remained still - strangely they seemed to be in a bloc in front. Whether this was because Tim put his views over far more strongly or whether it was the content I have no way of knowing. Obviously many present had clapped both speakers for their presentations (so their neighbours would not know which way they intended to vote) but there were definitely several who refused to clap the 'Remain' supporter.

I have to admit to already having voted by post so cannot change my vote now even if I wanted to.

Sadie Vacantist said...

His argument makes no sense and is exposed when he cites examples. Europe has been under American hegemony since 1945 period. With that has come an unelected federal reserve, CIA and military industrial complex to name but a few of the components from within the American deep state.

Boycott the referendum.

Liam Ronan said...

I live in Ireland. My wife is English. This short video articulately and succinctly expresses what a vote to 'remain' in the EU might mean.

"Ten Consequences of a Remain Vote" - Daniel Hannan M.E.P.

The US State of of New Hampshire has an official State motto. It reads:

"Live free or die."

That sums it up for we here. The EU is enslavement. Ask the Italians or the Greeks, or yes, even the Irish.

May the vote result result be in accordance with God's Plans and designs and may we all prayerfully seek to discern His Holy Will.

Highland Cathedral said...

That comment from Sede Vacationist is just plain silly.
Boycott Sede Vacationist.

Just another mad Catholic said...


The EU whatever its original intention is a dying anti-Catholic institution. Which is so self deluded, that even in terminal decline has pretensions that makes the builders of the Tower of Babel look like humble fisherman.

Liam Ronan said...

Anecdotally, and if you are not convinced the EU is a totalitarian State, I suggest you acquaint yourself with what happened to the Irish people when we rejected the EU's Lisbon Treaty by 53.4% of the vote in June 2008. We were compelled to vote again until it passed!

Or perhaps the EU's appointing of Mario Monti to be the (unelected) Prime Minister of Italy from 2011 - 2013. Yes. 'unelected' Prime Minister.

On and on it goes. There have so many blows upon the bruise that one tends to blot them out in order to retain any semblance of sanity.

David O'Neill said...

Sadly no-one can know the outcome of leaving the EU but at least we can vote out our ELECTED MPs if they make a mess whereas the unelected Eurocrats are there forever. Whatever the outcome (please God it is leave) at least we can control our own destinies. Have you read of the number of suicides in Greece because not only were they members of the EU but also the Euro & their pensions have been drastically cut because of the EU. Even a professor commited suicide because his pension reduced him to scavenging in refuse bins. NO THANK YOU!!!!!!!

Lepanto said...

I think that the fact that the EU Court of Auditors has felt unable to sign off the annual accounts for decades says it all. Apparently the Mafia don't bother much with the heavy stuff these days, they claim for agricultural enterprises that exist only on paper, helped by Italian officials who don't regard bribes as anything other than income - the same things happen in Greece and other EU countries - see recent articles in The Times and Sunday Times. It's a mess and it's not going to get any better. Where's the exit, please?

Jacobi said...

I am surprised the Church and those who claim to speak for it, in UK, as opposed to individual Catholics, is becoming involved in this debate. UK in or out is irrelevant to the outcome of Christianity and Catholicism over the next ten years or one hundred years. Other factors will determine that.

Over many centuries the constituent parts of Europe have waxed and waned, including the UK. Other factors have determined the fate of the Church.

Currently the Church in Europe is in severe decline, an internal problem and we should be worrying a bit more about that and incidently the non -EU immigration which is greater than EU immigration and will go on, regardless, in or out.

I have already voted by the way by post. Not saying which way.

Michael Gormally said...

The sensus fidelium counts for nothing in this debate.

Michael Gormally said...

Simon Heffer in the DT: "In the real world, as some politicians have belatedly recognised, people want change. They dislike being told that the United Kingdom cannot run itself. They deplore doomsayers who have lost faith in their country. They are angry that their country’s borders are open not just to geniuses with PhDs, nurses, teachers, plumbers, electricians and others who can contribute to it, but to welfare tourists, pickpockets, rapists and murderers.

They resent a foreign power overruling their courts and their elected government. They are frustrated at being unable to change key policies when they vote. They detest contributing £8.5 billion a year net for Brussels to spend in countries less efficient, less productive and more corrupt than ours. They have had enough, above all, of being told that unless the UK concedes in perpetuity to foreign rule it will be worthless, and face ruin, danger and unremitting failure."

Sadie Vacantist said...

@Highland Cathedral

My comments were prompted by an article from Ambrose Evans Pritchard (Tim Stanley’s colleague at the Telegraph) following the Obama intervention. Unlike Stanley, AEP used to be the paper’s Washington correspondent whilst Stanley looks as if he has barely reached puberty.

Much of what AEP observed at the beginning of the piece is valid, he just loses it towards the end. What he neglects to note (he is not Catholic and couldn’t care less) is the role of Catholic politicians in the development of the EEC. This influence exercised upon the Catholic politicians by the Americans is at its most obvious in the case of Alcide De Gasperi. Even Wikipedia records his involvement with the Luce dynasty in America and Clare Luce (wife of Henry) was later named the American ambassador to Italy. The influence of the USA was extended to the Second Vatican council typically through the Jesuits (John Courtney-Murray) and German proxies (Karl Rahner) again from the Jesuit order. Both of these men would adorn the front cover of Time magazine owned by Henry Luce and the effective mouthpiece of the CIA. In short, this is the virtual council of which Josef Ratzinger complained during his final days as Pope.

By 1960, even President Eisenhower was alarmed at the emergence of a "deep state" in his country and expressed his concerns in a live farewell TV address to the American people (bizarrely similar to Ratzinger’s farewell complaint). Although Richard Nixon and Jimmy Carter attempted to address the problem, the former was removed in a press putsch and the latter only served one term in office, nothing much has changed since the 1970's and every American president is now a ‘lame duck’ as Evans Pritchard observes in his piece.

As for the Catholic Church and Brexit it has two options: it either regurgitates post-Vatican II hot air of the Archbishop Paul Gallagher variety or it learns to keep its mouth shut like St. Thomas More.

I am with the latter so boycott the referendum and say nothing.

David O'Neill said...

Boycotting the referendum by not using your vote you effectively give a 'Remain' vote. Please don't just sit on the fence, vote LEAVE!!

Liam Ronan said...

Perhaps we might all ask ourselves this question:

"For which choice would Pope Francis, the EU's 2016 'Charlemagne Prize winner', wish for me to vote?"

Following such private discernment, we might all choose accordingly.

Tamsin said...

brexit brexit brexit

Sadie Vacantist said...

@David O'Neil

This makes no sense at all. A boycott could be giving Brexit a vote! I am suggesting that St. Thomas More's silence is the way forward. He sat on the most uncomfortable fence of all.

Physiocrat said...

I have voted. These were my reasons, for what they are worth.

Deacon Augustine said...

Like taxation, government is a necessary evil in the functioning of any country. However, why would anybody want more government than is absolutely necessary, especially when that extra layer of government is totally unaccountable to the people it is supposed to serve?

Pelerin said...

Interesting to see Physiocrat's link to his blog post. I see that I am 'misguided' but at least I am 'nice'!

Liam Ronan said...

@ Deacon Augustine,

Acutely observed. The historic cry of the 18th century British colonists in the 13 U.S. colonies which sparked the American Revolution was: "No taxation without representation!"

The EU superstate has virtually no accountability to the citizenry.

RJ said...

The European Community was established to defuse the nationalism which had led to centuries of murderous conflict. I believe it has helped to do that.
As to democracy: the EU has a democratically elected parliament, the commissioners are nominated by democratically elected politicians, and their appointment and proposals for laws must be approved by the democratically elected parliament.
It is not a tyrannical superstate but a voluntary association of nations. Nobody will invade Britain if it chooses to leave.
If we leave, we will still need immigration, owing to the depletion of our population through abortion and contraception over decades, leaving us with a euphemistically named 'aging population'.
If we leave, we will either have to accept freedom of movement in order to have access to the single market or default to WTO rules, which I would have thought will put us in direct competition with low-wage economies. We may than scrap all those pesky regulations that protect workers rights as we join a race to the bottom.
I note that many east European nations were keen to join and are keen to stay.
Even Greece was desperate to stay. I think we have to ask ourselves why.
These are some of the reasons I'm voting to remain.

Liam Ronan said...

With all due respect to your feelings about the EU and democracy, may I ask you who 'elected' Mario Monti to be the Prime Minister of Italy where he exercised that office from 2011 - 2013? Certainly not the Italians. They were not permitted to vote. The EU decreed Mori to be the Prime Minister of a soveriegn nation.

Who determined that the rejection of the Lisbon Treaty by the citizens of Ireland in 2008 was untenable and that Ireland must vote again so as to reach a different result? The EU superstate.

The Greeks had had their banks siezed and pensions effectively frozen by the EU and with beggars' bowl were compelled to approach the EU just to function as a society. "Please sir. I want some more."

Hegemony is not justice ipso facto. Hegemony is often the tyrant's way.

God enlighten the voting public so that whichever result and whatever way may serve His Will.

Deacon Augustine said...

As to democracy: I find that memories are very short! Since the 2008 financial crisis both Greece and Italy have experienced the imposition of non-elected governments by the ECB/BundesBank - European Commission - IMF "troika". Democracy will always be subserviant to the ruling cabal of eurocrats and bankers with their ideology of "ever-closer-union".

The nature of ideological bureacracies is that once you give them some of your power/sovereignty, they never give it back and constantly seek to take more of it. This is the UK's last chance to return some sense of freedom and self-responsibility to our nation.

However, the great downside of whichever way we vote is that none of us know exactly what we are voting for. Brexit is most obviously a leap into the unknown with regards to so many variables. However, voting to stay is also a vote for the unknown because the EU of today will be a very different beast in 5 year's time. We are not voting to stay in a single market - we are voting to stay in a political behemoth which is driven by non-Christian ideology and our inability to influence it was illustrated by Cameron's failure to achieve any one of his goals.

Delia said...

A friend forwarded this to me, and it has clinched it for me.

Professor Michael Dougan on the EU Referendum:

Scribe said...

I fear the electorate will vote Remain, as most will be more interested in football this month. John Milton had the following to say about the British character:

But what more oft in nations grown corrupt,
And by their vices brought to servitude,
Thank to love bondage more than liberty,
Bondage with ease than strenuous liberty.

Nothing has changed in over 300 years.

Pelerin said...

I had to smile when I was doing the crossword today in a newspaper which has had umpteen pages of reasons why we should leave the EU. The clue was 'STAY' and the answer was 6 letters 'R - M - IN.' It did not take long to fill this one in!

RJ said...

The Greeks lost control of their finances temporarily. Nobody is threatening their long term autonomy within the framework of agreements voluntarily entered into.
The Irish voters could have rejected the proposal put to them a second time. Nobody was stopping them.
Politicians, including British politicians, are reluctant to lose power, but some issues are greater than the nation state.

Liam Ronan said...

@ RJ,

Based on your reply and the rationale you suggest, may I then put two questions to you?

1.) If the voters of Great Britain choose to leave the EU you would be agreeable for the EU to require British voters to vote again and again and again on the matter so long as every time they have the right to reject union?

2.) You would be agreeable for the EU to determine that the citizens of Great Britain would "lose control of their finances" so long as the EU decree was only a 'temporary' imposition?

RJ said...

To 2): it would be no more agreeable than our having to follow the instructions of the IMF under Dennis Healey.

The Irish referendum was farcical but not an instance of coercion.

I would ask you:
Is our submission to international law a loss of sovereignty? I believe it is but I find that acceptable.

Is our membership of NATO a loss of sovereignty?

Sovereignty is not absolute but something we can, to some extent, share for the greater good. The question is how much we are willing to share.

RJ said...

I see this decision as traceable at least back to the anti-Catholic propaganda of the Tudors as they sought to portray the Church as something foreign to which Englishmen must naturally be hostile. They inoculated the English with xenophobia.
I am reminded of Henry VIII's imposition of the law of praemunire, which made it treason to appeal to any authority beyond our borders.