I am no Medje fan, I think Medjugorje is a fraud but nevertheless I am not entirely gleeful that there are reports that the number of Italians who have visited the Croation 'shrine' this year has fallen 'drastically', the pundits suggest the reason is the uncertainty the imminent Vatican judgement is bringing to the minds of pilgrims. If they are not 'Medjing" are they actually doing anything?My concern is that 'faith' for many is not exactly ecclesial or sacramental, rather like some who go to Lourdes with a particular pilgrimage but never attend Mass at home, or those have a great devotion to particular saint but not much to Christ, or those in Southern Europe or Germany (where they still exist) have a great devotion to a particular confraternity but would never have anything to do with their parish Church. The English equivalent are those who would drink in the Catholic club or go to the Catholic school as markers of Catholic identity.
Friends who live in the Borgo Pio area very close to St Peter's which used to be jammed packed on Wednesdays at the beginning of his Papacy used to complain about the type of people who wanted a glimpse of the Pope Francis 'they seem to have no understanding of Catholicism', they were people who wanted a 'lucky look' at the Pope. Apparently they would pass around children who managed to get a touch', or more wonderfully a kiss being passed around to be touched by 'Scicillians' or 'gypsies' so they might have a share in whatever 'luck' had been acquired. I remember an Irish woman saying to me at the exposition of the relic of St Therese at at Aylesford that she was there 'for luck for my family'.Faith for some of us is a highly complex edifice a mixture of revelation, philosophy, world view, trust etc., for some faith, and about which most of us 'churchy' inheritors of the 'Liturgical Movement' Catholics tend to be a bit sniffy, is not very distinct from superstition, sometimes it might be 'pious superstition' but it is still superstition. In the past we thought superstition was at least the beginning of 'faith', that it could be developed, 'moved beyond' to something else. We could talk about a 'pious instinct', rather like those people who came to Jesus for healing, or to see a miracle but stayed to wonder, and to hear, and then to truly believe. God doesn't despise the 'lucky' look or touch or kiss and maybe at the root of all faith is a desire for something we cannot define, where instinct, a deeper sense, intuition lead the mind.
An untutored palate either does or does not like wine or beer, later we learn to discriminate and can become quite sophisticated in our tastes, the problem is that when someone says a particular wine is poisoned, then the unsophisticated spit out all wine whilst the discerning simply avoid the problematic vintage.
34 comments:
Speaking for myself Father I suppose part of the problem is that people don't really believe in the power of prayer anymore. I go to Mass daily and tell my beads daily but its more of a 'superstition' (for want of a better word) that doing so is the only way to avoid God sending calamities my way, and Sunday Mass essentially a duty which I fulfil by trying to make the appropriate obeisances (albeit half heartedly). My experiences have resulted in me not expecting Jesus to actively help me out in life, there are after all, only so many times one can take being handed stones after asking for bread (with childlike Faith) whilst watching ones co-religionists being handed (by God) not only bread, but jam, candy and sweetmeats as well. If you do know anyone with a 'lucky touch' feel free to ask them to friend me on FB.
As an update to my previous comment above and in a way that it is more related to the post, I must observe that people I know who've been to medjugorje really do seem much more upbeat spiritually and tend to be more 'involved' in the Church than your average trad e.g. I know a young(ish) Ukrainian women who before more recent events would take doctors (and sometimes even members of their legislature) who were adamantly pro abortion to Medjugorie and lots of them would end up converting, setting policy that their clinics would no longer murder children in vitro etc etc. I've been very anti-Medgi since the first time I went to Fatima and met a Priest (very nice chap, of my diocese who had 'retired' to Fatima) who railed against it, but I have recently been re-evaluating my opinion.
I was thinking of going to Fatima this November (big regulatory deadline coming up for the end of October at work) but having not made reservations might go to Medjugorie instead, I mean what's the worst that could happen? Our Lady will turn a deaf ear to my pleas like she has in the Capelinha.
I think that this is a huge problem for the church in many places. I'm sure this is why the faith has collapsed so abruptly in (Southern) Ireland. For all too many it was just an outward sign of belonging to a culture and pious superstition, reason did not come into it which meant that when an alternative culture based on "reason" attacked it, there was no defence.
I think this is actually what the Second Vatican Council was trying to stop in calling for active participation of the laity. Sadly it was interpreted by many as a call to be physically doing things during church services rather than learning about and being able to participate more deeply in the faith.
The other terrible error is the changes to the Mass. For a couple of years recently, due more to events beyond my control rather than a conscious choice, I attended the Old Rite weekly (I had gone from time to time but not regularly before). Now events beyond my control have caused that to end and I am attending the new rite again. The odd thing is that I no longer find it defective. Sure, the new translation helps a lot, but because of my familiarity with the Old Rite, I get far more spiritual nourishment out of the new. Importantly, I also notice the same with my Children.
I think the secular equivalent is that someone who is fluent in ancient Greek and Latin understands English and other Latin/Greek derived foreign languages in a far deeper way. Without exception, those who constructed the new rite were utterly familiar with the old. And there lies their fatal flaw. It was not realised that coming generations who were not familiar with the old rite would only skate along the surface with the new. Importantly, it is the texts and the rubrics and actions - not the language - that does this. If the old Rite was in English it would make no difference.
There are certainly some very notable fruits of the new. I am convinced that weekday Masses would be little attended if they were all old rite. It takes too long and is too remote for a regular lay weekday mass community to thrive. However, we hear a lot about the loss of the Penny Catechism, but we also have to accept that the Old Rite is itself a Catechism, and a necessary Catechism at that.
I think the Ordinariate have realised this, hence their liturgy has options that virtually make it the Old Rite in English (and much of the Anglican elements of it are really Sarum Rite). Rumours are that the Vatican are considering offering similar options in the Roman rite. If they do then perhaps we can at last have an acceptable reform. Indeed the Prefect of the Congregation of Divine Worship has this view:
“It would be wrong to consider the extraordinary form of the Roman rite as coming from another theology,” he said. To manifest that the ordinary form and the extraordinary form are “in continuity and without opposition,” it would be “desirable” that there be an appendix in an upcoming edition of the Roman Missal that would permit celebrants in the ordinary form to use the penitential rite and the offertory of the extraordinary form.
“If we live in this spirit, then the liturgy will cease to be the place of rivalry and criticism,” and instead be the place in which we participate actively in the heavenly liturgy, the cardinal concluded. "
I am a bit ambivalent about this. On the one hand while I don’t believe in Medjugorje and have no desire to visit, I realize some people ‘find religion’ there and other places of pilgrimage. I expect that is God drawing good out of ‘evil’ as we know He can.
In Italy years ago we Irish cast supercilious eyes on the predilection of the populace for ‘weeping Madonnas’ and other supposedly ‘supernatural’ occurrences. Perhaps we were a bit presumptuous in this – as we had our own share of superstitious practices in Ireland.
I’ve never been to Lourdes or Fatima, but have been to see the Shroud of Turin and to Knock in Ireland. I can’t say the latter two moved me particularly. It has always seemed a bit strange to me that people would travel great distances to places of pilgrimage when the greatest mystery of our Faith – Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament - is present daily in our churches.
It’s human nature, I suppose, to seek after ‘signs and wonders’ – grasping at any straw to bolster our Faith. But I wonder if we truly believe in the Real Presence…?
I don't think that the use of the word 'fraud' is appropriate. This is a public condemnation of the 'visionaries' as liars. I have never met anyone who has been there (including myself) who does not believe in the apparitions except a few ex-Catholic journalists and writers who went there in order to attack Catholics in general as gullible idiots. Even one of their number said that during an apparition, he was astonished to 'see' in his mind's eye every image of Our Lady that he had ever seen in his life in chronological order from early infancy. It didn't move him to belief in the apparitions or to a belief in God. However 'gifts' such as that do move people of faith to a stronger faith and I have been fortunate enough, as have many thousands of others, including friends and family, to witness extraordinary and beautiful phenomena for which I can find no natural explanation and which have deepened my faith.
I wondered when Medjugorje supporters would comment here.
There is a BBC programme from 1986 on Medjugorje which I have just discovered and watched on YouTube. Actress Eileen Atkins (of Upstairs Downstairs fame) gives a reverential presentation which is refreshing when compared with today's BBC programmes on things spiritual usually presented from an atheistic point of view. She says things like 'she still sees the Madonna daily' instead of 'she still believes she sees ...'
However the programme has not changed my mind at all - I remain extremely sceptical of these visions and have no wish to visit there but await the eventual pronouncement from the Pope. The longer the pronouncement is put off the more people are going to be disappointed at what I humbly consider to be the inevitable outcome.
Curiously one of the so-called seers says that Our Lady's birthday was on August 5th (I particularly remember this as it is the same date as my own) whereas the Church celebrates it on September 8th according to my diary. Strange.
Interesting. I think you're quite right, Father. Faith for a lot of people is quite superstitious. Mej is in my opinion a load of baloney... But for those whom faith is superstitious, it probably works. That doesn't make it a good thing...
Young as I am, I think the key to faith is thankfulness. We never say thank you: We ask for things, "can you help me with my job application", "I need some help with family". And often, in some way, our prayers are answered. Usually not the way we intend, perhaps. But we don't say thank you. So really, that kind of faith is believing that God (and heaven) is a benevolent cornucopia. We ask, we receive. We don't get what we want. We complain that we didn't get what we wanted.
Humans have a great talent for being ungrateful: We want things, and we can't always have them. But then think about it, when you walk past a beggar on the street, do you say thank you? Actually, I've got a job, I can afford to pay my rent. I can afford new clothes and journeys to different parts of the country. I've got a family who love me, friends who I can talk to... And above all, I've got a friend who I can complain at, be ungrateful towards, and generally ignore. And yet, He still loves me! And we live in England, we are a wealthy country, with public healthcare. We're not stuck in a port trying to climb into a container, or a rail tunnel, trying to escape a life marked by violence... So yeah. Faith is helped by thanking God for the things he has given us...
I went to Medugorje once, in 1988. However, I think the preponderance of evidence is that the apparitions are not from God. And, yes, many people, sincere in their Faith, do go there, and believe it's what it purports to be, but I think they are misled.
What more could anyone want than Mass at one's parish church? Or Exposition. What more else is there?
Lepanto, the use of the word fraud does not necessarily condemn the visionaries as Liars. It is quite possible that they are having visions, not of our Lady but of the master of all of fraud impersonating our Lady, he has form for this sort of thing you know.
I visited Medugorje three times and initially was convinced but over the years I have become increasingly sceptical. A friend was so enthusiastic that she bought a house there to live but gradually she began to have doubts about it all. Her testimony has convinced me that it was not genuine.
Medugorje happened at a time of very low ebb. Most people were besieged with scientism and rational atheism. Many probably did begin to doubt the Real Presence. Traditional devotions which supported us had been abandoned and thus the enthusiasm that surrounded it found a ready response. Many people found a renewed faith. There were therefore some goods coming out of it but unfortunately much of this good will be put to the test.
I would use the word "fraud" unhesitatingly; and urge the reading of the book *The Medjugorje Deception* by E. Michael Jones:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=a9_sc_1?rh=i%3Astripbooks%2Ck%3Ajones+medjugorje&keywords=jones+medjugorje&ie=UTF8&qid=1440930009
Jones, by the way, is a practicing orthodox Catholic.
Erm, sorry, Father, but it's "palate" that you taste with, rather than "palette". A palette is what a painter uses to mix up his oil-paints on.
PS don't anyone call me out about ending a sentence with a preposition. I'm with W Churchill on that.
At Heroldsbach in Germany in 1959, hundreds of villagers reported seeing Our Lady and various saints. The Church pronounced against the apparitions and asked those who had claimed to have witnessed apparitions to sign a statement denying what they had seen, excommunication was 'offered' as an alternative. Most refused to sign and were duly excommunicated. The excommunications were lifted after several years but the apparitions officially'never happened. When the Medj. 'visionaries' issue the warnings of events that they say will occur within days of those warnings being given, then we will know whether they are liars or not.
(Interestingly at Heroldsbach, one villager reported a disturbing vision of the world being covered by a 'spider's web' and heard a warning that disturbing the web could cause immense harm to the world! WWW anyone? That was in 1959.)
CD,
Thanks, English isn't my first language ...
There are many examples of religious fraud that have some good results. My opinion is that followers often do some good. Take for example Mormonism. It is massive fraud yet it has constructed a temple in Salt Lake City and follows some correct moral principles. Or think of bogus relics and even apparitions.. people interrupt the thing in a beneficial way and it results in fervour but it all falls apart when the fraud is exposed. Its a matter of trust and the devil uses fakery to spread incredulity. take an example of all those lies told about Catholicism and the Inquisition. Pamphlets printed vile falsities spread and so a "black myth" created. This is as evil and false apparitions. People read in Club Medge all they think they have lost. They need to know the supernatural is real so they look for signs. Yet the belive in any sign is silly!
In answer to William Tighe at 30/8/15 11:22 a.m.
Be very careful abour E Michael Jones. He has constructed an edifice of temerity on the words of Jesus to some Jews (or Judaeans) where He says "You are of your father the devil . . . " (John 8:44). Jones has concocted a theory of the so-called "Jewish revolutionary spirit" which singles out unbelieving Jews of all people as being sinister and conspiratorial. His opinions are erroneous in fide, contrary to the truth of God's never-failing faithfulness to His ancient people expressed in Romans 9-11, and of their predestination to national conversion towards the end of the age.
There is nothing orthodox about this man.
@physicocrat
There is nothing wrong with exposition at the local Parish (assuming the Priest allows it), but there are so many people who've been so hurt by the world and others who want something more than what can sometimes feel like talking to oneself in front of an unanswering who it seems isn't concerned with their lives. As I said before in my experience, those who go to Medgi / involved with the charismatic movement actually seem to have the 'joy' we're told we're supposed to have in our Faith.
It is as necessary for a person of Jewish origin to be baptised and have the Faith as it is for any other person, in order to be saved.
Since I appear to be the only commentator who believes the Medj. apparitions to be genuine, I hope that you will bear with me if I make a further observation.
I volunteered to give a talk to a Catholic men's society of which I was a member (about 15 years ago) about Medj. The meeting was to be held in a room in the HQ of a missionary order, as it was every month (we did a considerable amount of voluntary work for the order and this was the 'quid pro quo). An agenda was provided to a member of the order as a courtesy, though the meeting was nothing to do with them and no member of the order had ever previously attended. Just before the meeting commenced, we were informed that they would not permit any talk to be given about Medj. and that one of the order would instead give a talk about the history of the order.
I listened to the talk, which was fascinating, and sat with the speaker at coffee afterwards. I asked him why my talk had been banned and he said that 'the Church had not approved it' and the order could not permit unapproved apparitions to be discussed on its premises. I then asked if he, or any of the order had visited Medj. and he said that he had been there himself 'by accident'! I asked for the background and he said that his nephew and his wife had died in a car accident on honeymoon in Croatia and that he had volunteered to go to identify the bodies and to complete the paperwork necessary to repatriate the bodies, on behalf of the families. A priest had agreed to accommodate him and, he found himself with much time to spare while he waited for the necessary paperwork to be completed. He asked the priest what places he might visit to 'use up' some time and the priest told him that he could hardly be in the vicinity and not visit Medj. He went, out of curiousity.
I said that I would regard it as unusual, even on a day visit, if a priest had not seen or experienced something 'unusual' there and he said that indeed he had and that he found it quite inexplicable. He told me that, at the instant the apparition time began, every bird for miles around appeared and clung to the bell tower over the spot alleged to be the apparition site and, at the instant it was the time for it to end they all flew away. I asked why he had not found this to be at least persuasive of the truth of the apparitions and he just smiled,stood up, said that he had an appointment and left the room.
Make of that what you will. The company at the table were nearly as surprised at his reticence than he probably was at the activity of the birds. That missionary did the cause of Medj. that night much more good than I could have done.
Mr. Petek,
What you write about Jones's political may well be true, that his, his revival of adversos Judaeos (and anti-Masonic) stances, but somebody as respectable of the former abortionist (and subsequent convert to Catholicism from liberal Judaism), the late Dr. Bernard Nathanson, took the same line as Jones on this matter; and in any event it has no bearing on his (amply documented) debunking of the Medjugorje racket. And to say that "there is nothing orthodox about the man," is both slanderous, and reveals your ignorance of Jones's life history, not least of his dismissal from a tenure-track position in the English Department of the (nominally Catholic) St. Mary's College in South Bend, Indiana, for his outspokenly "pro-life" stance and activities.
In any case, you are, free if you choose (and are capable) to rebute his book, if you can adduce evidence to do so.
Of course there's nothing orthodox about EMJ, since one error in faith is enough to destroy a man's virtue of faith.
Although the Jews are under the same necessity of salvation as everyone else and there is only one way of it, it is the tradition of Pope Innocent IV that they are (as long as unbaptised) bound to observe the Law of Moses. It is also de fide divina that the Jews are chosen in the present for conversion in the future, so they have to be a people identifiable by descent according to the flesh. (Romans 9-11).
The words "You are of your father the devil . . . " describe the condition of the whole human race by reason of descent from Adam and Jesus could have spoken them in truth to anyone, not just Jews.
I'm off to see "The Best of Enemies" tomorrow night. The film will present William F. Buckley who, from a Catholic perspective, is an example of the failure contemporary American conservatism. E Michael Jones brilliantly exposes the failure and, in a way, Medugorje is one more example of fools gold which Catholics have been mining since World War II and the subsequent catastrophic Church council.
In the 16th century the Protestant reformers regarded the faith of ordinary people as being mere superstition. They went on to reject most of Catholic belief and practice as being superstition. A side effect was the deliberate destruction of most of late medieval and early modern art and indeed music - most of which existed in manuscript - some tantalising fragments still survive.
They were of course intellectuals, quite au fait with the Scriptures in Latin, Greek and Hebrew. Their superior knowledge made their case unassailable as far as they were concerned.
Fast-forward to Vatican II. The Council of the intellectuals and pseudo-intellectuals. The laity were not to be given what they wanted, rather what their intellectual superiors deemed was good for them. This was stated at the time by a prominent English Benedictine. They had the same hubris as the 16th century Protestants but couched it in deliberately non-confrontational language.
In 1966 Paul VI said that the Council's decrees were part of the Ordinary Magisterium. Not, it should be noted, the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium, or the Extraordinary Magisterium. So no-one has to accept de fide anything that came out of Vatican II. Let's start with Sacrosanctum Concilium, a reworking of the original Bugnini draft and to my mind an ambiguous and thoroughly dishonest document.
Father,
I have always had a certain reservation about visions, particularly those of children. Even Lourdes, to which I have been once. Much impressed by a young woman who walked into the grottos on her knees while all around chattered, however.
We have a splendid statue in our church of medieval German origin. It is that of Our Lady seated with the Christ Child on her knee. Rather similar to one at Walsingham I believe?
Now that says a lot?
Sadie, save your money. The movie is a bust.
Fr. Ray it would have helped if you had given some reasons why you believe Medugore is a fraud.. My own personal belief is that our Lady is actually appearing. Here some of my reasons. I have gone as a pilgrim around 18 times. My wife has gone more than 20 times. We went with our four children twice, and other time with one of us with one of the children. We returned again and again because of the abundant peace and joy of the Lord that was granted to us. Our faith and trust in God was strengthened by the testimonies of fellow pilgrims. I have lost count of the number of young men who shared about finding their vocation to the priesthood due to a visit to Medugorge, or priests who share how they came to Medugorge burnt out or in despair, but left renewed and vibrant, or vocations to religious life, or people talking of personal healings or genuine conversion and amendment of life, or finding a new hunger for prayer. And above all, going to confession along with huge crowds of penitents. Conversion/confession is the main fruit of Medugorge. Given the state of the church at present, where the sacrament of reconciliation has been more or less abandoned, this is for me compelling evidence that Medugorge is for real. And the emphasis on adoration of the blessed sacrament. A priest friend of mine said that there was no need to go to Medugorge because all of this was available in the local parish. Yes, but very few people avail of it. After a visit to Medugorge, people come back hungry for confession and adoration. That is what the grace of Mudugorge achieves. Fr.Slavco was the priest sent in by his Franciscan superiors to investigate and close it down. He became a believer, and in my opinion he is the most important person in the story of Medugorge. Whenever people asked him was it true that our Lady was appearing, he always replied ‘I am like everybody else, waiting for the Church to decide. In the meantime, live the messages’ which for Fr. Slavco meant live the Gospel. Fr.Slavcos mind and heart are laid open in all the books he has written to help people surrender their lives completely to Jesus and Mary. There is not a single sentence in any of his writings which is unsound doctrinally, no encouragement for piousity, no encouragement for seeking signs and wonders, absolutely no encouragement for a ‘cult of the visionaries’. There is an abundance of practical advice and guidance on how to progress on the road to holiness by a man who knew the lord and desired only to lead others on the right road. Happy the parish priest whose parishoners build their lives around a response to the Medugorge message – the call to abandon your life to the Sacred Heart of Jesus through the Immaculate heart of Mary. By the means of God’s grace – Weekly Mass, monthly confession, adoration of the blessed sacrament, recitation of the complete Rosary daily, fasting on bread and water Wednesday and Friday. Fr. Ray if you have not done so already, I would like to recommend to you that you go online and read the homily given by the Franciscan Provincial, and other remembrances, on the occasion of the funeral Mass for Fr. Slavco. I think you might find it like as though through it Slavco was talking to you priests heart to priests heart. I have given my reasons for believing Medugorge to be genuine.I await the Church’s judgement, unlike most of the unbelivers, who don’t appear to require the Church to have the last word. Love your blog. Thank you Father Ray.
Thanks Gem. What's the problem with the movie?
Let me say this, start a prayerful and live the faith. Jesus is coming soon. Doesn't matter if you are a Catholic or not. Believe in Jesus, all knees will bow before the King of Kings.
Medugore is not a fraud. Many miracles of healings and conversions happen there. God do wonders through good and evils. One must ask, do I put God above all things in my life 2. Do I love my neighbor as myself. Do not judge as you will be judge by our Lord Jesus.
All too many parishes stopped being Catholic by the time 'mass' became Protestant and the 'pope' became a UN board member. Hence folks go running around the planet after the next 'Catholic fad'...there's an oxymoron.
Sadie, it is from all the conservative reviews I read, poorly constructed with no set up to the time period of the day. And errors. All I can say is that in college I was a heavy reader of Buckley and I took the time to double check everything Buckley had to say about his fight with Vidal. I went and hunted up articles each had written and what Buckley said was true, and Vidal had committed slander. This movie seems like another "tail gunner Joe" type of lie. Sketchy selective facts and short on placing the encounter in context.
I would regard Buckley, John Courtney Murray and Clare Luce as three of the most highly influential post-war Catholics. There is a tendency in Europe to lazily blame “the Germans” for Vatican II yet the “virtual council”, to which Josef Ratzinger referred in his final days as Pope, was very much the product of the powerful American media. My understanding is that Buckley regularly threw the Church “under a bus” in the name of the American conservative movement. I saw him do exactly that in 1967 when interviewed by Woody Allen when he attacked his fellow Catholic DeGaulle for his critique of the USA. Buckley also attacked John XXIII’s encyclical Mater and Magistra in 1961. He was a cafeteria Catholic avant la lettre and demanded the head of Cardinal Law over the Boston business. Interviewed by Charley Rose at the end of his life, he looked a miserable and broken man. Having lost whatever little faith he possessed.
In truth, the attempt to reconcile or “synthesise” American conservatism, the post-War settlements and WWII itself with Catholic teachings and disciplines have been a catastrophe. Made worse my America’s commitment to an imperial future. Buckley and Courtney Murray were on the frontline of this project.
I agree with Lepanto that fraud may be the wrong word in this instance. For one thing it implies some kind of deliberate scheme of deception either by children or adults in whom they trust and thus follow their orders. I do not believe that to be the case, but on the other hand how can the “Pope” determine with certainty what is not true? How can a mortal deduce or conclude that something of a spiritual nature is not true or worse a “fake?” Will he rely on some scientific formula or DNA extrapolation or this or that or what? The concept of apparitions is spiritual in nature and as such is not subject to laws of physics, biology, psychology or even religion. Will he say that evidence exists that a certain portion of the brain when stimulated in some physical way will produce such an apparition and as proof have a willing candidate to submit to such a “test?” It seems to me the Pope has it reversed because the principle should be “faith in search of reason” and not the reverse.
But father, Međugorje isn't in Croatia..
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