Sunday, August 24, 2014

Who are We?


In a world where mankind seems increasingly lost, I mean on the one hand  people lie Dickie Dawkins suggesting the parents of a foetus with Downs syndrome aborting their child and starting again, as if even for a total secularist it was ever that easy, or the riots in Ferguson in the US, or the fragmentation of society we continually see around, not to mention the threats in Ukraine or the horrors of Boko Haram or the Islamic State, the question Jesus asks his disciples in the Gospel today, "Who do people say I am?" is of great relevance, because ultimately the question is about us: what is mankind.

The impressive clear thinking Provost of the London Oratory, Fr Julian Large, in part answers this question and demonstrates its implications, and indeed raises further questions.
If a Catholic priest or bishop in our age were to preach that there is no Zoroastrianism in Heaven, or Seventh Day Adventism or Hinduism or Anglicanism, I think we can imagine the reaction. The printing presses of the liberal media would probably explode.
But it is true that if we do manage to gain entry to Heaven – and one has to say ‘if’ because salvation is not something that anyone of us can take for granted – we shall not find religious pluralism or any type of denominational division. What we shall find is the One Mystical Body of Christ, with all of the Holy Angels and Saints united in one Body and our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ at the Head. We shall find that the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church that we have known on earth has been purified, perfected and glorified – the Church Militant taken up and subsumed for eternity in the Church Triumphant.
We often hear that if religion is to have any place in modern society then we shall all have to acknowledge that all religions are equal. But for a Christian this is something that cannot really be true. It doesn’t wash. The reason for this is that Christianity makes mighty claims that no other religion has ever attempted to match. We don’t just say that our religion has been established by a remarkable and saintly messenger of God, who has come to teach us unattainable truths and to set us a unique example of integrity, self-sacrifice and goodness. Our religion has been established by one Who actually is God, and Who is Truth itself. Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ is a Divine Person, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity. And it is only because God took on our human flesh and died on the Cross for us that anyone is able to be saved. Our Lord is the one supreme Pontifex Who bridges the infinite chasm between man and God in His own Person.
This is not to say that those who have never had the Gospel preached to them, or never encountered credible witnesses to the Gospel, are beyond the scope of salvation. Certainly not. Yes, Christ has ordained that incorporation in His Mystical Body the Church is to be the means of man’s salvation. But His love and His grace are boundless. And the Church insists that there are reflections of Divine Truth in other religions. In so far as these truths pertain to salvation, however, She claims them as Her own. When a non-Christian dies, he will see with perfect clarity that Christ is God the Son. If he dies in the grace that is a prerequisite for entry into the eternal bliss of Heaven, he will see that Our Lord has been the source of his salvation all along, even if he never encountered a Christian or a Catholic in all of his life.
Hence the seriousness with which the Church has always taken the mission described by Our Lord to Peter after the miraculous catch of fish: “Henceforth you will catch men.” Ever since that commission, the Church that Christ founded on the Apostles has been fishing for souls in every age, and in every part of the globe that She can reach.
If you go to Rome on the feast of Ss Peter and Paul, you will find St Peter’s basilica festooned with fishing nets. That is a reminder that the Pope has a responsibility for souls on a universal scale. He and the bishops have been commissioned to work continuously to bring all souls in to the Barque of Peter. We must pray for them, because the prelude to the account of the miraculous catch of fish in the Gospel, in which Peter and his companions are presented as weary and disheartened after a whole night spent labouring without success, reminds us that on our own we can do nothing, and the human spirit easily grows weary and fails.
We too are called to be fishers of men. But rather than using the great trawling net that has been entrusted to the Successor of Peter, most of us will probably find that fishing with the line is so much more effective. We have to use friendship, kindness and example to draw souls in gently, reeling them in to the Barque of Peter with patience and great charity. And this can be far more effective than we ever imagine. Don’t be taken in by the lie that the world is becoming increasingly secularized. Great parts of the globe are, in fact, embracing Islam. And in the west, more and more people are happy to involve themselves in all sorts of spiritualism and New Age superstitions, even if it is fashionable to pooh-pooh ‘organized religion’.
This shows that there is a great thirst for spirituality, and that people do have a hunger for religion, whether they realize it or not.
Perhaps many of us who are converts to Catholicism were attracted because we were impressed and even amazed by the wonderful intellectual coherence that exists within the Catholic Faith. But we have to bear in mind that rational arguments hold very little sway with many or even most of our contemporaries today. They have been brought up in a culture of sentimentality, in which they have been encouraged to make decisions based on emotions and personal ‘intuition’. They may even feel threatened and repelled by logic. And it has to be admitted that, on their own, rational arguments for the Faith are like winter sunshine: they shed light, but they do not lend much warmth.
But even in this cult of sentimentality, our Faith actually has one distinct and powerful advantage. Christianity is the only religion that makes the extraordinary claim that ‘God IS love.’ And those words of St John open up an awe-inspiring vista into the very life of the Blessed Trinity, which is an eternal and infinite outpouring of self between Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
But it is not enough to talk about love. There is one thing that we can be sure that our contemporaries will demand from us as Catholics, and that is authenticity. We have to show that the reality of God’s love overflows from our hearts, in our conversation and in our actions. To be sure, authenticity is often judged today using the most shallow of criteria. The disciples of the cult of sentiment have an insatiable appetite for novelties, gestures and sound bites. Those of us who had an old fashioned upbringing would prefer when we give alms that our left hand should not know what our right is doing. If we are to have any hope of bringing souls into the Church in this age in which we live, however, then the Church has to be seen to be doing what, in former ages, She has always done in a less self conscious manner – reaching out to the needy, the sick and the abandoned. And if we are to succeed in bringing souls into the Barque of Peter, then we have to involve ourselves in this work of God, and not to be embarrassed to be seen doing good.
There is nothing arrogant in holding the conviction that the Church is true. Today there is a false notion of humility which says that it is meekness to play down our Faith. But our mission to bring souls into the Mystical Body of Christ is truly humble in the best sense, because it is carried out in obedience to our Saviour.
Fr Julian Large.

47 comments:

gemoftheocean said...

Yes. Excellent note from Fr. Julian. I wish a certain occupant in Vatican City and take to heart what was said re: preaching the faith to all nations, rather than promote "going along to get along" and giving up and leaving people "to their own faith community" instead of trying to convert them by persuasion (rather than head hacking.)

Lynda said...

Timeless truths tenaciously taught. We need our priests to preach the unambiguous content of the Faith, unambiguously and with zeal. All must convert to Our Lord and His Holy Church to gain Eternal Life.

vetusta ecclesia said...

It is also, surely, presumption to say " and then to the Father's house"!

Catholic Mission said...


If any one is saved without the baptism of water ( with the baptism of desire etc) then God will send him back to earth to be baptized with water. This has been the experience of many saints including St.Francis Xavier.People who were dead, returned to life only to be baptized with water.
Secondly, as St.Thomas Aquinas taught, if there is a man in invincible ignorance in the forest, through no fault of his own, if he is to be saved, God will send him a preacher to instruct him and to baptize him.
In Heaven there are only Catholics.


I accept the literal interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus according to Fr.Leonard Feeney and endorse an implicit for us and visible only for God baptism of desire
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/08/i-accept-literal-interpretation-of.html#links

efpastoremeritus2.com said...

Many thank, Father, for publishing that extract from the Provost of the London Oratory.

John Russell Finch said...

I detect a whiff of Jansenism here and in the disloyal comment.

Fr Ray Blake said...

CM,
God will send him back to earth to be baptised?
That is heretical.

Liam Ronan said...

I think Fr. Julian's remarks are worth pondering. Nonetheless I detect a certain appeal to 'invincible ignorance' as offering the possibility of salvation for those outside the Church. If so, why convert? I'm unconvinced that this proposition has secure doctrinal foundation. Therein lies the rub, I think.

"This is not to say that those who have never had the Gospel preached to them, or never encountered credible witnesses to the Gospel, are beyond the scope of salvation. Certainly not. Yes, Christ has ordained that incorporation in His Mystical Body the Church is to be the means of man’s salvation. But His love and His grace are boundless. And the Church insists that there are reflections of Divine Truth in other religions. In so far as these truths pertain to salvation, however, She claims them as Her own. When a non-Christian dies, he will see with perfect clarity that Christ is God the Son. If he dies in the grace that is a prerequisite for entry into the eternal bliss of Heaven, he will see that Our Lord has been the source of his salvation all along, even if he never encountered a Christian or a Catholic in all of his life."

I offer the following enlightening explanation for inclusion the mix:

"Invincible or Inculpable Ignorance Neither Saves nor Damns a Person" by Father Michael Müller, C.Ss.R.

http://www.cfnews.org/page88/files/77982a376d9f1b199810842b1f158b8e-203.html

Savonarola said...

I often think of atheist and agnostic friends who are not at all lost, but are living good decent lives, working hard, looking after their homes and families, contributing in many ways to the betterment of society. If this is not enough for them to be "saved," "go to heaven" or attain "eternal life" (whatever any of those may mean) they will think so much the worse for religion, as they need no other raison d'être and find religion, especially Catholicism, deeply unappealing. And please do not play the sin card, as there is nothing more guaranteed to turn off the unconvinced than telling them God will only have anything to do with them when they know they are lost sinners - it is not true anyway, they are just ordinarily human.
They could just about believe in a God of love (and would not be too worried if Church people do not always live up to him, as they are very good at overlooking faults and failings, giving the benefit of the doubt and making allowances - unlike many religious people), but not if this belief has to be attached to what they see as a load of old junk - obsolete mythology and cosmology, fantasies about a virginal birth, bread and wine becoming human flesh, various impossible miracles - not to speak of incomprehensible arcane rituals in gloomy tomb-like buildings led by men in fancy dress. They find the antics of church people, lighting candles and saying endless prayers to get God to notice them or manufacturing trumped up miracles to prove a dead person to be a saint, ludicrous.
The so-called New Evangelisation seems like little more than a reversion to old pieties. A truly new evangelisation would ask how we can preserve and present the essence of Christian belief (a God of love who is available in and to humanity) in a really new way free of the out-dated trappings of doctrine and ritual. But it seems that the more religion declines in general appeal, the more tenaciously the religious cling to what they know. What do they really have faith in - God or religion?

Catholic Mission said...

Fr.Ray Blake
God will send him back to earth to be baptised?
That is heretical.
Lionel:
Why is it heretical? If God so chooses... and the saints confirm it?
Which dogma or doctrine does it contradict?

Catholic Mission said...

Liam:
"Invincible or Inculpable Ignorance Neither Saves nor Damns a Person".

Lionel:
Assuming it saves, it is still theoretical for us humans and real for God.
So if it is hypothetical for us it cannot be an exception in 2014 for all needing the baptism of water for salvation.
In a way it is irelevant to extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
Invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire are accepted as possibilities but not exceptions to the de fide teaching.
This is was the objective error of the Letter of the Holy Office 1949. The Letter assumed that these cases are objectively known, defacto known, and so they are exceptions to the centuries old interpretation. This was the Cushingite error.
To suggest that the defined dogma has explicit exceptions is irrational and heretical.
On the other hand accepting extra ecclesiam nulla salus with implicit baptism of desire and invisible for us being saved in invincible ignorance, is not rejecting any of the two teachings of the Catholic Church.

Fr Ray Blake said...

Catholic Mission,
You said, in the comment I deleted 'God would send them back to earth to be baptised', Where is that in scripture or in Tradition, it is heretical, a new heresy, well done! It sounds like re-incarnation.

Savonarola,
"Whatever" is also about communion with God, there were good people therefore faith seems to be important, at least to the Apostles.
24/8/14 10:12 pm

Liam Ronan said...

@Catholic Mission,
You said:

"People who were dead, returned to life only to be baptized with water."

If you had qualified that comment by 'apparently dead' and who, by the grace of God, returned to consciousness that they might receive baptism, I could agree. The key is when the soul leaves the body and nobody knows when that is in any particular case.

I too subscribe to the teaching of "extra ecclesiam nulla salus", which I don't believe has ever been formally repudiated. Fr. Leonard Feeney never retracted anything in respect of his teaching on the matter and died in the bosom of the Church.

Have a look at my earlier posting which has a link to what I believe is a good exposition (albeit brief) on the subject of Invincible or Inculpable Ignorance.

Personally...I repeat personally...I am inclined to believe that as God tested the angels, so too might He similarly test those children and adults who died without baptism through no fault of their own and those who were ignorant of the Faith through no fault of their own (or poorly instructed).

A flash of illumination, and one chooses for or against God.

But if as Savonarola reasons every nice guy and gal gets though the pearly gates then what drove the Apostolic zeal and urgency of St. Paul and the others apostles? I'm sure there were Greeks and Jews and Romans who were ever so nice. Why bother to attempt to convert those who are doing just fine? (I think I've heard that rationale lately but I may have had a bad translation).

Peace!

Supertradmum said...

Father, thanks for this. I am always stating on my blog that Jesus is the only Way, the Truth and the Life--in fact, earlier today.

We must all do our bit, and priests, especially. But, do most Catholics not realize that governments are stalling or keeping missionaries out of the West on purpose?

Yes, just ask some of the orders from America in England

Supertradmum said...

PS I do not think in this day and age of cell phones, texts, twitter etc. that there are many people in invincible ignorance anymore.

And, it is our faith that God gives all people grace for salvation...they have to accept it.

Lepanto said...

We were assured, at Mass this morning, that the keys would open heaven's gate for 'all of you'. I don't know who 'all of you' was intended to include but I suppose all of us sitting there (and probably a lot more). Surely even the 'once saved always saved' protestant preacher would hesitate to guarantee eternal bliss to an audience whose spiritual state was entirely unknown to him. This is the Church today - priests offering cheering and comforting falsehoods. Pray for our priest and all those many like him, please.

Liam Ronan said...

Remember Acts 20:10 and the account of Etychus who fell asleep during the assembly and fell off the window sill and was thought dead. St. Paul went to him and:

"To whom, when Paul had gone down, he laid himself upon him, and embracing him, said: 'Be not troubled, for his soul is in him.'

efpastoremeritus2.com said...

Mr. Ronan
The Quotation from Fr Muller, as you know, is traditional sound teaching.
I have not read his work si I assume he does NOT say that the same applies to Crass ignorance which can lead to eternal damnation, Hence the missionary imperative on every Catholic to see or aid conversions to The Truth

Savonarola said...

207I might have added that another big turn-off for the unconvinced is the way religious people seem far more concerned with damning each other - bandying around cruelly dismissive terms like heresy - than they ever are with reaching outside their little enclosed circle. They see this as a pretension to exact knowledge where such is not possible.
In the wake of the abuse scandal several commenters said that the Church needs to be much more humble and honest about its limitations - a lesson still to be learned.

Catholic Mission said...

You said, in the comment I deleted 'God would send them back to earth to be baptised',

Lionel:
St.Francis Xavier said that God sent them back only to be baptized.

It is not reincarnation since after they are baptized with water they return back to the dead state.

Fr.Ray Blake:
Where is that in scripture or in Tradition,

Lionel:
I don't know. I am only reporting what many saints have experienced.

Jacobi said...

A good article by Fr Large.

There certainly has been in the last fifty years a sense that things are falling apart, and indeed they are.

As Catholics, the Certainty which is perhaps the most important to remember is what we call the Four Last Things, Death, Judgement, Heaven or Hell.

Catholic thinking in this period has relativised, and turned away from this and from other certainties, hence the decay of the Church and the main reason for the rise of paganism.

God is Love. Christ summarised the Commandments into three basic issues of Love. He said Love the Lord thy God, with your whole heart soul and strength, love yourself (“as thyself”) and then love you neighbour.

The danger is that this is simply translated into dropping coins into boxes in the supermarket – a very easy road to slide down, and one that any humanist, or agnostic, or atheist or pagan or anyone just a bit embarrassed to be passing the box can equally slide down.

But the way to really start loving God, we Catholics have. It is the Mass. Yes, just a start mind you!

viterbo said...

"...because salvation is not something that anyone of us can take for granted..." What an unpopular 'tip' for eternal happiness, and how outdated; everyone is a saved pusson, except for WMD makers, the mafia and 'traditional Catholics'. Someone should send a memo to Fr Large and Christ, because I don't think they've been brought up to speed.
-
We cannot hope to have any conception of Divine Love without at least a smidgen of a conception of Divine Justice; without such an understanding, Christ - the Lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the world - remains 'meaningless' and inaccessable. St Alphonsus believed that God permitted people perpretrating evil (unpceely known as evil pussons) to exist merely to be 'crosses' for the Faithful.
-
p.s. It was moving to read that James Foley, at least when he was first kidnapped, prayed the Holy Rosary on his knuckles: "I began to pray the rosary. It was what my mother and grandmother would have prayed. 
I said 10 Hail Marys between each Our Father. It took a long time, almost an hour to count 100 Hail Marys off on my knuckles."

Liam Ronan said...

@efpastoremeritus2.com,

Certainly the command to evangelize and preach the Truth of Christ unflinchingly to all is both imperative and of the utmost urgency, presenting the Gospel even to those who reject it or are otherwise 'nice' fellows albeit pagan.

"Go then, and remember, I am sending you out to be like lambs among wolves...
But if you enter a city where they will not make you welcome, go out into their streets, and say, We brush off in your faces the very dust from your city that has clung to our feet; and be sure of this, the kingdom of God is close at hand. I tell you, it shall go less hard with Sodom at the day of judgement, than with that city."

As for "Crass ignorance" I'm not certain if you mean deliberate wilful ignorance or not.

My personal belief is that our prayers for the conversion of sinners and the salvation of souls contribute mightily if not mystically to evangelization (ala St. The Little Flower who wanted to be a missionary).

Catholic Mission said...

"People who were dead, returned to life only to be baptized with water."

If you had qualified that comment by 'apparently dead' and who, by the grace of God, returned to consciousness that they might receive baptism, I could agree. The key is when the soul leaves the body and nobody knows when that is in any particular case.

Lionel:
the saints do not say apparantly dead.

Catholic Mission said...

Liam:
Have a look at my earlier posting which has a link to what I believe is a good exposition (albeit brief) on the subject of Invincible or Inculpable Ignorance.

Lionel:
When the apologists comment on the baptism of desire and being saved in invincile ignorance it is not an issue.It is acceptable. However when they infer that the baptism of desire etc is explicit for us and so an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus, then the problem arises.
The baptism of desire is always theoretical for us. We cannot name case over the last year or this year. We cannot say that any one has been saved this year with the baptism of desire or that someone in particular will be saved as such.
So what is hypothetical, speculative and known only to God, cannot be an explicit exception to all needing the baptism of water and Catholic Faith in 2014 to go to Heaven and avoid Hell.

Catholic Mission said...


Fr.Ray Blake has not mentioned any dogma or doctrine which I contradicted to be heretical.

He only says that it is not there in Scripture.

Even the Immaculate Conception of Oour Lady they say is not there in Scripture.

At the end of the Gospel of John we are told not everything is there in Sacred Scripture.
Understandably, Scripture does not mention the baptism of desire or claim it is an exception to all needing the baptism of water.

Lynda said...

People can be turned on and off to the unchanging and unchangeable Deposit of the Faith, according to the Grace of God. Continual unrepented mortal sin hardens the heart and darkens the intellect. God's laws are not to be twisted to satisfy one's desires.

Lynda said...

Such priests fail to do their grave duty to proselytise and to nurture the souls of the Faithful, to do everything in their power to enable and help them to be in a state of grace, and receive Eternal Salvation. Such priests are answerable for the souls they have endangered by their failure to do their duty for the salvation of souls. Blessed Michael, the Archangel, defend us in battle, be our safeguard against the wickedness and snares of the Devil. May God restrain him, we humbly pray, and do, thou, oh Prince of the Heavenly Host, by the power of God, cast Satan down to Hell and with him all the other wicked spirits that wander around the world, seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.

Mike Hurcum said...

Catholic Mission not very well put I would say. But the problem with re incarnation father says God got it wrong the first time and the belief that we come back as animals or reptiles is disgusting...
He sends us back making us a lower form of life without a sentient soul.

efpastoremeritus2.com said...

Mr Ronan,
The Moral Theology manuals all distinguish between Invincible and Crass ignorance - the former being blameless and Crass Ignorance being blameworthy --- it is sometimes described as feigned ignorance

Joe Potillor said...

Good words

Catholic Mission said...

Fr.Julian Large:
This is not to say that those who have never had the Gospel preached to them, or never encountered credible witnesses to the Gospel, are beyond the scope of salvation. Certainly not. Yes, Christ has ordained that incorporation in His Mystical Body the Church is to be the means of man’s salvation.

Lionel:
True but what has this to do with all with no exceptions needing to enter the Church in 2014 for salvation?
Is Fr.Julian implying that these cases are known in the present times and so are an exception to the traditional interpretation of outside the Church there is no salvation.
Can cases which do not exist in our reality be an explicit exception to the literal and traditional interpretation of Fr.Leonard Feeney.
Without a clarification Fr.Julian encouages confusion here.

Catholic Mission said...

Liam:

I too subscribe to the teaching of "extra ecclesiam nulla salus", which I don't believe has ever been formally repudiated. Fr. Leonard Feeney never retracted anything in respect of his teaching on the matter and died in the bosom of the Church

Lionel:
Would you say that Vatican Council II is in agreement with Fr.Leonard Feeney's concept of extra ecclesiam nulla salus ?

Catholic Mission said...

Mike:
Catholic Mission not very well put I would say. But the problem with re incarnation father says God got it wrong the first time and the belief that we come back as animals or reptiles is disgusting...
He sends us back making us a lower form of life without a sentient soul.

Lionel:
There is no reincarnation.
The ordinary means of salvation is Catholic Faith with the bapitism of water.If sonmeone has died without the baptism of water and God has not sent him or her to Hell, then God could send that person back to earth only to be baptized with water.
This is what the saints say.

Catholic Mission said...

Lynda, at the London Oratory and on the website of the Catholic Bishop's Conference of England and Wales it is inferred that a non Catholic saved with ' a ray of the Truth' (NA 2,Vatican Council II) is an explicit exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus. So they conclude that there is known salvation outside the Chruch. For them every one does not need to enter the Church for salvation.Dea facto there are known exceptions.

This is ambiguity,irrationality and heresy?
Perhaps this is why Fr.Julian did not come out clearly and say there are only Catholics in heaven.

Liam Ronan said...

@efpastoremeritus2.com,

Thank you for the clarification in respect of the theological connotation of 'crass' ignorance which, as I take from your explanation, it is ignorance 'feigned'.

Surely then such feigned ignorance can only be cultivated through much study and effort in order to remain ignorant. (just kidding)

Peace.

Liam Ronan said...

Insofar as invincible ignorance is concerned, the maxim at law is:

"Ignorantia legis neminem excusat"

Liam Ronan said...

I have always thought Luke 12:41-47 was a bit puzzling (I am no theologian, obviously) in which Jesus says in part:

"Yet it is the servant who knew his Lord’s will, and did not make ready for him, or do his will, that will have many strokes of the lash;
he who did not know of it, yet earned a beating, will have only a few.

I'm not sure if there is a suggestion of invincible ignorance here, but do note that even the slaves who received fewer strokes at least knew who their Master was.

Liam Ronan said...

I beg to refer to my earlier remarks on Luke 12:41-47 and offer the following passage in conjunction with those remarks from Luke 23:34:

"Jesus meanwhile was saying, 'Father, forgive them; they do not know what it is they are doing'."

[Jesus autem dicebat: 'Pater, dimitte illis: non enim sciunt quid faciunt'.]

I suggest that 'invincibly ignorant men' still incur guilt and need forgiveness and we can do no less than Jesus in begging the Father to forgive them.

efpastoremeritus2.com said...

Mr Ronan.
I agree that ignorance of the law does not excuseis a mxim of law. Which could raise other questions.

I understand Crass Ignorance to be that ignorance which could be avoided by reasonable effort on the part of the person who may take refuge in not wanting to find the truth. Invincible Ignorance is very different

Lynda said...

Catholic Mission, EENS is a necessary part of the Faith to be held to religiously. However, it can only be a mystery to us while we remain in this world how God may bring souls into the Church other than the normal way of baptism by water (or by blood). We can never presume that any given person would have entered the Church, even where they've ostensibly no personal responsibility for not having been baptised in the normal way.

Pelerin said...

Whenever this subject comes up no mention seems to be made of the many who having been baptised and brought up in the Catholics Faith then reject it for a large number of reasons. They remain good people and yet they can no longer believe. They are not 'ignorant' of the Faith as such so cannot claim ignorance.

On a lighter note it was great to see comedian Dave Allen again this week on tv. He told the joke about the chap entering heaven to be surprised to find it full of Buddhists, Baptists, Hindus etc. Spotting a big wall he asked St Peter what that was for. St Peter replied 'Sshhhh - the Catholics are behind there and they think they are the only ones up here!'

Many years ago my parish newsletter printed the following poem:

I dreamed death came the other
night
and heaven's gate swung wide
With kindly grace an angel fair
ushered me inside.
And there, to my astonishment
stood folks I had known on earth;
Some I'd labelled as
'unfit','of little worth.'
Indignant words rose to my lips
but never were set free
For every face showed stunned surprise
No one expected ME!

Catholic Mission said...

Liam:
I too subscribe to the teaching of "extra ecclesiam nulla salus", which I don't believe has ever been formally repudiated. Fr. Leonard Feeney never retracted anything in respect of his teaching on the matter and died in the bosom of the Church

Lionel:
Would you say that Vatican Council II is in agreement with Fr.Leonard Feeney's concept of extra ecclesiam nulla salus ?

There is no answer from Liam to this question in the comment above!

This issue is related to Vatican Council II and to errors in Catechesis and Evangelisatuion.

Example:
Transformed in Christ Catechesis ,U.K is flawed doctrinally
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/08/transformed-in-christ-catechesis-uk-is.html

Fr.Paul Morgan, SSPX District Superior (GB) cannot criticize the Transformed in Christ Catechesis and Evangelisation program : Archbishop Lefebvre makes the same error
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/08/frpaul-morgan-sspx-district-superior-gb.html

Liam Ronan said...

@Catholic Mission,
You said:

"There is no answer from Liam to this question in the comment above!" (punctuated with an exclamation point no less)

Liam, by way of bowing out says,

"Quandoque bonus dormitat Homerus"

Cheers.

Catholic Mission said...

Lynda:
Catholic Mission, EENS is a necessary part of the Faith to be held to religiously....

Lionel:
Agreed!
Do you think that an error was made here in the Catechism 1257?

August 28, 2014
CARDINAL JOSEPH RATZINGER MADE AN OBJECTIVE ERROR IN THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH (N.1257)
http://eucharistandmission.blogspot.it/2014/08/cardinal-joseph-ratzinger-made.html

viterbo said...

'We' are those who 'Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you'; in order to find the obvious (once the world and its utter antichrist narrative has at least been 'suspected').
-
p.s. much to be gleaned from the 'invincible ignorance' rehabilitated as selfish indifference, thread.

John Vasc said...

Fr Julian pretty much nails it, as does Mgr Gilbey, here writing on the visible unity of the Church: "Some forms of ecumenism seem to imply a denial of what is to us the absolutely basic proposition that this unity does already exist and that everybody needs to be gathered into it. Christianity if you like, Christendom certainly, has been broken up and divided. The Catholic Church is not and cannot be divided. As we considered earlier, people can drop away from the Church in their hundreds or thousands or millions, but her unity is not broken by that fact. Her unity, which Christ promised would be the evidence of the divinity of His Mission, continues still."
'We Believe' [A Commentary on the Catechism of Christian Doctrine] published (with 'nihil obstat' and episcopal 'imprimatur') 1983.