Wednesday, October 15, 2014

Kasper, A German of the 1940s?

 Walter Kasper
Fr Z has this up, an interview with Cardinal Kasper, it is shocking, worthy of a German of the 1940's!
It has been said that [Pope Francis] added five special rapporteurs on Friday to help the general rapporteur, Cardinal Peter Erdo. Is that because he’s trying to push things through according to his wishes?
I do not see this going on in the Pope’s head. But I think the majority of these five people are open people who want to go on with this. The problem, as well, is that there are different problems of different continents and different cultures. Africa is totally different from the West. Also Asian and Muslim countries, they’re very different, especially about gays. You can’t speak about this with Africans and people of Muslim countries. It’s not possible. It’s a taboo. For us, we say we ought not to discriminate, we don’t want to discriminate in certain respects.
But are African participants listened to in this regard?
No, the majority of them [who hold these views won’t speak about them].
They’re not listened to?
In Africa of course [their views are listened to], where it’s a taboo.
What has changed for you, regarding the methodology of this synod?
I think in the end there must be a general line in the Church, general criteria, but then the questions of Africa we cannot solve. There must be space also for the local bishops’ conferences to solve their problems but I’d say with Africa it’s impossible [for us to solve]. But they should not tell us too much what we have to do. 
Kasper has been, or at least claims to be the Pope's mouthpiece, does this reflect the Holy Father's thoughts? Let us pray it doesn't. If it does, we have very serious problems.

I am really am quite disgusted. It seems to indicate two Churches, not One that Christ established.


Frederick Jones said...

German of the 40s. Even the Lion of Munster celebrated the Fuhrer·s birthday.

The Bones said...

Isn't this the Cardinal who was left in Rome before the Papal Visit of Benedict XVI to the UK because he described the United Kingdom as a 'third world country'?

What is it about the 'third world' that generates so much distaste, contempt and irritation for the Pope's mouthpiece.

I am disgusted. If I said what Kasper has said, I'd be openly called a racist.

Obviously the Africans, in Kasper's view, are not 'enlightened' enough for this liberal Western Cardinal.

Vox Cantoris said...

As a Catholic with a beautiful South African Catholic wife, I consider this Cardinal to have uttered racist statements.

Long-Skirts said...

"Kasper has been, or at least claims to be the Pope's mouthpiece, does this reflect the Holy Father's thoughts?"

"Serene theology"

Hailes said...

I really don't understand his comments. The English seems so poor and the square brackets show someones interpretation.
I await clarification

Deacon Augustine said...

There is an African priest in the parish nextdoor - I hope he hasn't read Kasper's interview. If he has I feel like I need to go and apologize for the grossly ignorant, malicious things that Kasper has said!

The only reason that the African priests are so needed over here in Europe is that hireling shepherds like Kasper have so badly failed in their mission. We should be learning from the Africans how to do things right. They don't need the lecturing of this pompous, heretic Kraut.

Tim said...

From Father Z's blog
Oct. 13, 1884 Pope Leo XIII’s vision leading him to write the Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel
Oct. 13, 1917 The Miracle of the Sun at Fatima
Oct. 13, 1973 Apparitions at Akita: “cardinal opposing cardinals, and bishops against bishops…”
Oct. 13, 2014 Relatio post disceptationem of Extraordinary Synod

So the Relatio was issued exactly 13/0 yrs after Pope Leo XIII's vision - Not within the 75-100 years though.

Anonymous said...

It seems Herr Kasper has outed himself as a thoroughly nasty type. Good! The more obvious it is, the better - he does not speak for Christ.


Sadie Vacantist said...

Barking up the wrong tree and what's more this is getting silly. Kasper is a man of his time just like everyone else. I seem to recall you had the same crew on here telling us to bomb IS and that initiative has already been exposed as nonsense in less than a month. Go back and read the Kapser haters and their rubbish re: "more war".

Yes, Kasper is a man of his time - the 1950's. He is a product of us, the allied occupation of post-1945 Germany. We created their crappy "new theology". Classic blowback from the occupation. Bomb a country to bits and you get either IS on the one hand or Kasper on the other.

Deal with it and grow up.

Cosmos said...

I think what Kasper was saying is that the African situation is so different because of Islam and other cultural forces, that the Africans inevitably have obsolte views on homosexuality. Because what they say is not in line with what they are supposed to say according to Kasper, they do not exert any influence at the Synod on that issue.

In ohter words, they are conservatives. Conservatives are ignored. Here, those conservatives just happen to be African.

Everyone can rest assured that if Kasper could find an African bishop that agreed with his idealogy, he would act like he loves him and parade him around as a spokesman for the cause.

John Vasc said...

Kasper's inability to treat people as equals is typical of a certain kind of snobbish pseudo-liberal, and his racial prejudices are, I'm sorry to say, typical of a certain kind of blinkered academic of his generation: travelling all over the world, but learning nothing.

But what interests me is the sudden shift in his focus - matching the surprising shift in the language of Part III of the relatio - in which, having focused on the 'problems of the remarried' for two years, suddenly it seems the real focus is on homosexuality. (Cardinal Schoenborn also - coincidentally with Kasper, or perhaps not coincidentally? - has given a press interview calling for the recognition and even praise of homosexual partnerships.)

Is this - (and was it always?) - the 'real' goal of the synod? After all, a synod 'on the family' could never have been called if it had homosexuality as its main discussion agenda.

But since the actual Christian, Catholic family, just soldiering bravely and obediently on in the face of a greedy and amoral and child-unfriendly secular world, has received no attention at all at this synod, and homosexuals are now all at once receiving so much fawning sympathy - what conclusion are we to draw from this?

The lure of the pink pound, perhaps? or of the pink church tax payment?

_ said...

The "R" word is appropriate in this situation. Cardinal Kasper is, by his own admission, promoting a nakedly racist agenda at the Synod, one which ignores the lived experiences of the poorest among us, the victims of Western capitalism, the prophetic anawim. In the name of mercy he tramples anew on the faces of the globe's downtrodden, denying them a chance to speak truth to power.

His privileged, Eurocentric musings, and the sclerotic structures of oppression they serve, must be resisted by all humane, civilised Catholics.

Deacon Augustine said...

John Vasc, I'm not so sure that its the lure of the "pink pound", but rather that so many of the bishops and Cardinals are compromised by homosexuality themselves.

We have had a perfect example recently of how a bishop who is morally compromised in his own life refuses to teach the Church's doctrine on morals or even opposes it because he does not want to be exposed as a hypocrite.

This is probably a case of collective self-justification which proves the adage "All heresy begins below the belt."

Anonymous said...

Deacon Augustine. You are so right about the "below the belt" bit. I think St Augustine of Hippo said the same thing in different words. Yes truly the Church is in a mess at the top, but it won't last forever. The sad part is the untold damage the top people are doing to the the Church and to Catholic families. I have just read St Francis de Sales 'Instructions for Married People' It is a million miles away from Pope Francis thinking.

Jacobi said...

Two disturbing matters from this interview, Kasper represents a faction determined to drive through a new, and therefore heretical interpretation of established Catholic doctrines with regard to Marriage and the sexual act.

This Synod is supposed to be about the Family but we see the immediate importance placed by the Kasper faction on the acceptance of homosexual practice, and as for the Church in Africa, well they are out of step (with current Secular thinking), so that’s their problem. They can just shove off!

What makes me angry is that this is an insult and a slap in the face, to those loyal married Catholics, by far the majority as far as Mass attendance goes, who in spite of the many difficulties and temptations stemming from our utterly sexualised society, hold to their marriage vows.

It is also a calculated insult to those Catholics of homosexual inclination who loyally hold to their Catholic Faith and observe chastity. The Church these days, from the Pope through bishops and clergy seems to have nothing to say in support of these loyal Catholics.

This whole shambles in becoming more and more disgraceful - and un-Catholic.

George said...

I thought this morning of how much I love walking out of the confessional. That great swell in the heart of joy and peace.

Kasper would deny this to gays and other PC sinners.

He would deny them access to true Mercy and offer instead this other "mercy".

What a horrible man.

Mr Grumpy said...

The Germans won't listen to the teachings of Christ so let's fix the teachings.

The Africans won't listen to the teachings of Cardinal Kasper so let's ignore them.

I guess we can at least stop asking "who does Cardinal Kasper think he is?"!

tempus putationis said...

Cardinal Kasper would have us believe that the problem is one of different
cultures existing in different continents, and reaches the extraordinary conclusion that the solution is to exclude Africans and Asians from the debate. I don't remember him condemning inculturation, which is surely another side to the same coin. Let's not be sidetracked: he doesn't care a fig for anyone's ethnic origins. He is hell bent, however, on avoiding discussion with faithful Catholics unrestrained by the quicksands of western legislation.

Pelerin said...

I am trying to work out what Cardinal Kasper means when he is quoted as saying 'The teaching does not change but can be different.'

It does not make sense to me.

Pelerin said...

A commenter on another blog has revealed that the word 'Kasper' means 'clown' in English. Wondering if this was really true I looked it up and found that it is indeed so and that another meaning is 'buffoon.'

A most unfortunate name for a Cardinal.

John Vasc said...

I suppose if you're taunted with the south German sobriquet 'Kasperle' (little clown) from schooldays up, it must embitter the character.

I see Cdl Kasper was President of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity for a decade. Maybe he's one of these ardent disciples of Christian Unity who prefer the company of their ecumenical dinner-companions, and rather look down on their fellow-Catholics? I've come across a few of those in my time.

William Tighe said...

And now, an implausible denial from Card. K. - contradicted by the interviewing reporter:

John Vasc said...

The journalist is standing by his transcript of the Cardinal's words recorded on an iPhone.
Cdl K did not realize he was going to be quoted on the record. Which means that these are indeed his views, but he'd rather not share them with the world, as it contradicts the image he cultivates of the 'merciful' smiling shepherd.
'My tables, meet it is I set it down...' (Hamlet, Act I Sc. V)
(Anyone who doesn't know the rest of that famous quotation can google it...:-)

in cithara said...

Well, who would ever have thought that I would have to speak in Kasper's defence? In his interview he highlighted, albeit clumsily, the real problem which currently threatens the fragmentation of the Anglican communion. Attitudes regarding homosexuality in sub-saharan Africa are not merely conservative but border on a kind of hysteria which we in the west cannot even begin to comprehend. For example laws have been passed in Uganda and Nigeria which imprison people not for homosexual acts but for merely being homosexual. Many people consider that homosexuals should be killed. There have been recent reports of the murders of homosexual men and women. Anglican and Catholic bishops from these countries share these views and therefore discussion and debate is just not possible with people who cannot even accept that, as the catechism states, homosexual persons should be treated with compassion and respect. His analysis is therefore correct that these kinds of discussions should take place at a local level. I am sorry father if your understanding of what he has said implies that there is more than one Church, but the truth is that profound cultural differences will eventually undermine and split the Catholic Church, as we have seen in the case of the Anglican communion, unless these issues (not just homosexuality but divorce and remarriage) are dealt with more sensitively at a local level. The fact that the Church has extended itself in the past two centuries from the Church of Europe and the near East into a global one has exposed go these kind of cultural tensions which cannot any longer be ignored.

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