My congratulations to Libby Lane and the dear old CofE, with her ordination to the Anglican episcopate in a sense it has reached its ultimate end begun at the Reformation.A friend took me to a rather beautiful pre-Reformation church, in a side chapel, in the wall was set a small modern metal door covered by a little white curtain, it was the aumbry or tabernacle, stuck to the door was a notice, "this safe contains blessed bread - there is nothing of value here".
In this time when we seem to be invited to explore the nature of what it means to be 'Catholic', one of the most obvious threads is Catholics believe God is truly and actually present in the sacraments.
39 comments:
What are you congratulating her for? Personally I think it is a pantomime that should be quietly ignored. They know the Catholic position and there is no need to say anything more.
Couple of related posts from Byzantine Texas.
http://byztex.blogspot.com/2015/01/they-asked-for-it.html
and
http://byztex.blogspot.com/2015/01/distribution-of-communion-at-papal-mass.html
In some Catholic Churches I visit I have an instant sense of the presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. In others, I am left with an emptiness. At one time I thought it might have been due to the mere architecture of the building. Not anymore, several modern churches, I have visited, also give me that instant sense.
Explanation?
How very sad. "Nothing of value here."
I think, Father, the notice was specifically designed to challenge the observer rather than being a statement that Catholics in communion with Canterbury don't really believe that the Blessed Sacrament is the body and blood of Christ. In fact I would go further and dispute your final statement. relatively few Roman Catholics these days believe that it is and incline more towards a receptionist view of the sacrament.
Very beautifully expressed, Father.
in citara,
Do you really think that?
By the way, 'Roman' Catholics are only part of the Catholic Church, even in Italy, there are many others like Ambrosian Catholics and Greek Cathholics, in communion with the Roman See but hardly 'Roman'.
The ordination of LL would seem to suggest there are now no 'Catholics' in communion with any CofE bishop.
And the purpose of ecumenical dialogue with these pseudo-Christians is what exactly?
Christ prayed for the unity of all those who believed in Him through the teaching of the apostles. He did not pray for unity among and with those who rejected the teaching of the apostles.
Let us be clear about this. Anglican orders are invalid. There are no priests or priestesses, or bishops or bishopesses, stemming from Anglican Ordination.
The bread in and after any Anglican service is just that, bread.
As Nicholas has said the whole thing is a pantomime.
Incidentally, when I see these magnificent expressions of Catholic Faith, the medieval cathedrals, which were pinched from us I always get a bit narked and wish we could have them back - until I remember the recent letter I saw from my bishop in which finance was given as one of the reasons for the closing of many of out awful post-Vat II churches.
Yes we Catholics have problems of our own to worry about.
Surely that notice was there primarily to deter thieves who may have thought there was something worth stealing inside?
The phrase 'nothing of value' does seem to reflect the view of most Anglicans although I understand there are some who do believe in the Real Presence.
Another big difference only came to me a few years back and yet seems so obvious now.
I was visiting my elderly mother who was a member of the C of E in a Care Home when it was announced that there would be an Anglican service taking place there. I asked her if she wished to go down to it. She declined as she was by then very deaf and said she would not be able to hear the vicar so there was no point in her attending.
It was only then that the penny dropped so to speak as for us even if we are blind or deaf we could still attend Mass uniting ourselves with the action of the Priest and actively participating in prayer. For Anglicans listening is important not the service itself. A very important difference between us.
Father,
with reference to "this safe contains blessed bread etc." it reminds me of the war time story about the catholic and protestant chaplains serving the forces. The protestant chaplain asked if he could place his communion hosts in the catholic tabernacle for safe keeping. Sorry said the catholic priest we dont put duds and live ammo together.
"...there is nothing of value here".
Surely a Freudian Slip if ever there was one!
I imagine that the notice was intended to deter anyone considering breaking into the aumbry in the hope of stealing items of monetary worth, rather than as a comment on the Sacrament.
Sorry, your clever soundbite doesn't work. Why would they keep it in a safe if they personally didn't value it? Clearly just to deter thieves after some silver.
This is what one might expect of the Evening Argus.
It is interesting to note that in the CDF doctrinal commentary which was issued in 1998 with the promulgation of 'Ad Tuendam Fidem' and signed by (then) Cardinal Ratzinger, it states:- "With regard to those truths connected to revelation by historical necessity and which are to be held definitively, but are not able to be declared as divinely revealed, the following examples can be given: the legitimacy of the election of the Supreme Pontiff or of the celebration of an ecumenical council, the canonizations of saints (dogmatic facts), the declaration of Pope Leo XIII in the Apostolic Letter Apostolicae Curae on the invalidity of Anglican ordinations ...
http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFADTU.HTM
and yet some Catholics still dispute that this truth has to be held definitively.
Does that final picture really show what I fear it shows? I am genuinely at a lost for words. Lord have mercy.
This is the week of prayer for Christian Unity. how sad that some people see fit to belittle the faith of those of the Anglican Communion. i am a Catholic of 75 years and I have a daughter in law who is an Anglican Vicar. I don't doubt her sincerity in hearing the call to service in the Church.
".. this safe contains blessed bread - there is nothing of value here". Well, it’s far from clear to me whether or not the chapel is a Catholic place. If yes, it would have therefore contained consecrated Hosts and the labelling was unfortunate.
Should it be a protestant chapel, the label is correct.
Dear Unknown,
Sincerity does not make one right.
'Unknown's comment at 10:58 proves my point. His/her daughter-in-law is NOT in the Church founded by Jesus Christ. And if 'Unknown' wishes to remain in full communion with the Catholic Church, then he/she must accept what the Catholic Church DEFINITIVELY teaches:- i.e. Anglican orders are completely null and void. The Catholic Church is already One. One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic.
Invalidity of Anglican Order?
Under Leo XII, yes but even the CofE moves on, from 1928 enough Old Catholics were involved in ordinations to cast doubt on the absence of Apostolic Succession at the least.
With the incorporation of female 'bishops' there is no doubt, the CofE is Reformed but not Catholic.
Our Blessed Lord chose only men..nuf said
Holy Moley!
Father, this may be of interest; an American survey found less than half (46%) of Catholics "know what the church teaches regarding the Eucharist and also express a belief in this teaching."
http://ncronline.org/news/catholics-america/knowledge-and-belief-about-real-presence
Sadly, belief in the Real Presence does seem to be falling.
The Anglican Church isn't Catholic, it's reformed. I don't use the term Roman Catholic. Anyone asks me I'm Catholic. When I was growing up only Proddies called us Roman Catholics.
A further point I would make to “Unknown” is that this discussion is in no way concerned with belittling the Anglican ecclesial body, it is simply making matters clear on a rather important fact. The Anglican orders are invalid. End of story.
There are no priest or priestesses, or whatever they call themselves, in the in the Anglican eccelesial body.
Unknown: Yes this is the week of Christian Unity. Yet the CofE has chosen this moment to throw up a roadblock to that unity by allegedly consecrating a woman Bishop in the full knowledge that such is unacceptable to Rome.
"Richard T": and the clergy?
Sixupman: Yours of the 28th Jan.
I know how you feel. Enter Bunbury Cathedral, Western Australia.....(Newly built)
The first thing you notice is the absence of a Crucifix. Immediately next you notice the absence of the tabernacle.
Look a little harder and you will notice a red Light burning in another room. Still you cannot see the tabernacle.
Linger a while ( A long while) and you may see someone enter. There is no genuflection. They kneel but soon leave again without genuflecting. It is a sterile place and devoid of anything remotely recognizable as something precious. I left and went to a nearby Hotel, had a beer and soon saw more reverence in one minute, in he Hotel than anything shown by anybody in the Cathedral.....
There is no longer the penalty of death for Catholics. Christians are no longer coerced into being members of the government occupied and controlled group called the Church of England. We don't have our property confiscated, fines imposed and bans placed on our being involved in politics. Well we do and our schools, churches and opinions are still being monitored by the State. The C of E is just a little state controlled sect just like Hitler's State Lutheran Church. Like the Reich's bishop and clergy of the past they give the salute as loyal party members of a very modern all powerful British State. It is the government that owns the C of E not Christ.
Phillip on the 31st Jan.
I make no bones about calling myself a Roman Catholic and nor should you.
With the many and varied denomination calling themselves Christian it more that ever essential now to leave no doubt as to where our allegiance lie.
Sixupman and Geoff K, Most unfortunately, I believe you are correct.
In some churches I have visited, including Notre Dame in Paris, “Holy” recorded music is played, just like Muzac in lifts. It is for me, very distracting and unwelcome. Maybe it’s an attempt to reproduce the feeling of Catholicism which was always, (almost) extant in churches pre V2 (not the wartime one {joke}).
Why this should be ? Like you, I suspect it might be related to the Real Presence ? Why should This not be tangible ? Yes, I do realise that an intrinsic judgement is displayed here, am I wrong therefore ?
Why is there a 'delete comment' (a rubbish bin)tag adjacent to the time and date of my comments? Am I on probation? Am I being investigated?. The 'tag' does not appear on any other comments
Could some one enlighten me please?
Kierman: It is so that you, and you alone, can delete it!
Can we remember that we are called to love and respect even those who do not hold the same views as us. Christ calls us to love above all and St Paul reminds us that there are three things which last, faith, hope and love and the greatest of these is love. Sadly I dont see any such love here.
Let ueus seek to build up the body of Christ
Sr Mary
geoff kiernan - you are not alone! I too have a dustbin on my comments and had no idea what it meant. I wondered if anyone could put my comments in the dustbin and thanks to Nicolas Bellord I now know that it means I can delete my own comments if necessary. But why does nobody else have a dustbin? Strange.
Pelerin: Everybody has a dustbin but only they can see it! Otherwise one could delete other people's comments.
@Sister Mary: Having looked through the comments I see this as a discussion of differences with the Church of England. Yes we are called to love our neighbours and I am sure everyone here would love Anglicans as individuals but that is not being discussed. They just do not love the Anglican Church.
Nicolas Bellord - oh I never realised that everyone had a dustbin but that only the writer of the comment could see it! Silly me. Thanks for the information. Must try it sometime to see how it works.
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