Saturday, October 22, 2016

Signor Tornielli's List

Image result for "i have a little list"
Have you read the terrible toady-piece by Andrea Tornielli of Vatican Insider? Signor Tornielli has a little list and anyone who raises a question about the direction the Church is going in is on the list. He ends his piece by going even further than the headline, 'Catholics who are anti-Francis but love Putin'.
“It is the mythical idealization of Russian President Vladimir Putin, who is presented as a “good” leader in contrast to the “bad” leader, the Pope, because of his stance on homosexual people, Muslims and immigrants. Russian foundations that have strong ties with Putin co-operate with the anti-Francis opposition.["]
Before I say anything else Putin is a serious threat to world peace, he is gangster, he places himself above the law of which he is contemptuous. I am not a supporter of Putin. My concern is Putinesque leadership style is spreading, it is DICTORSHIP, with all of its contempt for law, for reason, for anyone who disagrees with it. In fact Tournielli's article seems reminiscent of something from the dark days of Soviet Russia, when enemies of the state were denounced in Pravda just before a round of arrests and executions. Journalists in a dictatorship
Pope Francis speaks with Andrea Tornielli last year (CNS)
This is worrying because of Vatican Insiders semi-official status, and the Holy Father's obvious friendship with Tournielli. There is a dictatorial contempt for people who ask for clarification or simply disagree with the position the Holy Father takes.

I once asked a senior Vatican official why Benedict kept Cardinal Kasper and others, who historically had opposed him, in place, his reply was 'first of all to keep him sane and secondly to remind him there are other theological views than his own'. There is a great problem for any priest, but still more so for a bishop even more for a Pope to surround himself with a court of sycophants, and if they are given any power they quickly become bullies too, we saw that during the synod, we see that with Vatican clergy journalists, who even threaten those who are critical or even apprehensive with action in the civil courts.

Francis tends to do things by innuendo, he often can't remember documents he has only recently signed, perhaps his recent plea to journalists, was addressed first and foremost to his own court journalists


Ana Milan said...

Andrea Tournielli's little list is risible compared to the million plus signatories asking for clarification of AL, not to mention the petitions, private & public letters to PF before, during & after the Synod on the Family which, as we all know, was hijacked before it began. If he thinks that the 'little people' have forgotten or that we don't count, then he is in for a surprise.

pie said...

Instead of addressing the issues they go after the people who raise them.

First, they resorted to pressure and threats.

Now they are are trying to demonize them.

The next phase won't be pretty...

Dictatorship indeed.

Just another mad Catholic said...

If someday it may happen that a victim must be found, I have a little list, I have a little list, of Catholic Journalists, whom I'm sure will not be missed.

Liam Ronan said...

Will no one rid me of these meddlesome Catholics?

The lesson is, I imagine, that one should not be the first person to cease applauding.

Alan said...

What has happened to Tornielli? He co-authored (with Rodari)a decent book about Benedict XVI, which I grabbed from the local Mondadori when Fr Tim fortuitously reviewedit while Iwas on holiday in Italy.

Jacobi said...

So we have another category of scoundrels in addition to Promethean Neo-Pelagians. Pro-Puts /anti man in White. I'm no good at names so someone else can do that.

A fairly close relative of mine would have come into this category I suspect. He had something to do with the passive mutiny in 1919 when the men of the Royal Navy refused to fire on the Red Russians against the White. No violence, they just stood by their guns.

Funny how men could do a bit of thinking for themselves, and behave properly – then.

Mary said...

Putin is divorced.. living with his young mistress with whom he has a child - God bless the child at least. To accuse traditional Catholics of being pro-Putin because they don't embrace LGBTTTQIAA tolerance is .. absurd?

Liam Ronan said...

I could not help but notice La Stampa's blaring headline today quoting Francis:

"Beneath rigidity there is something else, there is often wickedness...Rigidity is not a gift of God."


“Hier stehe Ich, Ich kann nicht anders."
("Here I stand, I can do no other")” - Martin Luther

Perhaps he intended Luther for this denunciation.

Nicolas Bellord said...

Good to know that we are not alone.

Deacon Augustine said...

I think you maybe being a tad harsh on old Putie, Fr. True, he is a dangerous, narcissistic, psychopath, but at least he doesn't believe he is more merciful than Jesus Christ.

Sadie Vacantist said...

It's true that many Trump voters like Putin but the "Putin test" is scarcely a defining category for Catholics.

This journalist's remarks have been fuelled by Western elites and not the Faith itself. That is my experience of contemporary Catholic thought as a whole ("vote remain" we were told by our Catholic betters) i.e. Catholic thought today just isn't Catholic.

Liam Ronan said...

May I just observe something peculiar? The financial tycoon, George Soros, is said to have great influence with Francis (Jorge Bergolio). The two 'Georges' seem to be after the same dragons.

I was wondering if any one of your readers, Father, is familiar with Greek? I have read that the word "Soros" translates as 'an open coffin', a 'funeral bier', or an 'urn which holds cremated human remains'. (cross ref. Luke 7:14 "And he came near and touched the bier.") Is that so?

I often thought too that 'Bergolio' was phonetically similar both to the German word 'berg' meaning 'mountain' or 'mount' and 'olio' the Italian for 'oil'. Approximating (to my mind at least) 'Mount of Olives' (Olio d'Oliva) in double-speak.

Just musing.

Exsollertan said...

Liam you are correct. I have a Liddel and Scot Greek dictionary and it defines the word soros as a coffin or urn in which to keep cremated remains. Amusing!

Liam Ronan said...

Thank you, John, for that helpful research.

SzukmV said...

Just as there may be a "mythical idealization of Russian President Vladimir Putin" amongst some, there is a far greater personal demonisation of the same amongst almost the entire MSM, fed by western governments whose behaviour in the Middle East has been no better if not worse.

"Putin is a serious threat to world peace ..." seems to repeat the MSM line, but I don't know what facts bear this out when compared to the actions of the West in Iraq, Libya, Ukraine and now Syria.

Doubtless he is as ruthless as he needs to be, given the reality of governing post-communist Russia. However, I don't think his name serves as a suitable adjective for the behaviour you seek to condemn in the Church, which seems sadly party political rather than Catholic.

Jane said...

Deacon Augustine - well said.

Anonymous said...

@Liam Ronan: "The financial tycoon, George Soros, is said to have great influence with Francis"

Do you have any references for that claim? If it is true it is very concerning indeed. Or is it just rumour and conspiracy theory?

Liam Ronan said...


There are many many factual references and proofs for that statement to be found with just a bit of effort. I include here (below) only the most recent written by Elizabeth Yore, is an international child protection attorney who has investigated several cases of clergy sex abuse of children. She served as Special Counsel and Child Advocate to Oprah Winfrey. She is the former General Counsel of the Illinois Department of Children and Family Services and former General Counsel at National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

"Behind the Bronze Doors: Soros Radicals Collude with the Vatican"

There are also many emails recently released by Wikileaks to troll through if you desire.


Jacobi said...

@ V S,

Tend to agree with you. Putin and his backers are no better or worse than Obama/Clinton and backers.

We are all now just more used to nuclear weapons, particularly the military types whose fingers hover over the nuclear buttons, and the moneyed types who drive that thinking, so the danger is greater.

John Fisher said...

Tornielli needs to study logic. What connection between disliking the present pope and Putin? None.

Nicolas Bellord said...

@ V S,

Putin's actions in Ukraine directly causing the death of thousands are sufficient for him to judged as a threat to world peace. The indiscriminate bombing of Aleppo and general sabre rattling further confirms this.

However I agree the West has a lot to answer for as it has poured petrol on the flames. Why on earth have we given support to the rebels in Syria? What grounds did we ever have on just war theory to support them? Assad's government is the de facto government and if we had not interfered on the side of the rebels we might have been able to restrain him. Both sides will do appalling things because they know that if they lose they will be massacred indiscriminately in the time-honoured manner of Islam. As in Yemen this is a proxy war between Sunni Saudi Arabia and Shia Iran. We have chosen to back the Sunnis in Syria at the same time as supplying arms to Sunni Saudi Arabia so as to bomb civilians in Yemen.

And our Government and the Pope say that Islam is a peaceful religion! When are we going to get real?

Sadie Vacantist said...

Of course, if Trump is elected and carries out his threat to dismember NATO then this becomes a game changer. The EU would also come under pressure especially if American hegemony is curtailed and Greece would probably leave just for starters. Any diminution of American hegemony will be significant for the Church as the entire Second Vatican council project is dependent upon it.

Gillineau said...

Nickolas Bellord, that's a strange view of a chronology which directly implicates western Europe and the US in beginning the conflict in the Ukraine by facilitating a revolution, funding it, supplying it and having the elected head of state deposed. If, as Russia has found, the US and its endlessly war-mongering and incompetent military had just attempted to annexe a country the better to position troops on your border, I think you might be excused taking some sort of preventative action.

Putin may be a tough, but we're probably the baddies now. After the Blair Wars, the Arab Spring and Syria I think we've earned our right to the title of aggressor.

Nicolas Bellord said...

Gillineau: People will argue for decades about the rights and wrongs of what led up to the Russian invasion of the Ukraine but the fact remains that the crucial event leading to the deaths of thousands was the Russian invasion.

Liam Ronan said...

I see that Francis has effectively eviscerated Cardinal Sarah's Congregation for Divine Worship.

"Pope makes complete overhaul of Vatican liturgical congregation" (Catholic

See also LaCroix article:

"Pope replaces all members of Congregation for Divine Worship"

Apparently sll must stand with their backs to the wall.

Pelerin said...

The link given referring to the duty of journalists to tell the truth struck a chord with me.

I had read recently in the Daily Mail that 'Pope Pius XI did not speak out against the Nazis.' I sent an email to the journalist concerned, saying that even a glance at Wikipedia will show that 'the end of his pontificate was dominated by speaking out against Hitler and Mussolini.'

I have now read his reply to me which states that he was using a BBC article as his source for this! As we all know the BBC is not actually noted for its fairness towards Catholicism and yet this journalist wrote this without checking his facts first from other sources, surely a duty of any journalist.

This same column produced the surprising statement that the language of the Mass was changed from Latin to Greek under a certain pontificate whose name escapes me at present. I took the opportunity of writing to say that it was actually the other way round and the journalist concerned agreed that he had been wrong and yet I saw no correction given.

In another article it stated that Mrs Fitzherbert had been twice divorced and I took the liberty of pointing out that she had never been divorced. All these statements appear in print and so erroneous facts are perpetuated when other journalists consult them.

John Fisher said...

Yes I think the West the US Nato are the baddies. Lets put it simply quoting Wikipedia "The modern history of Crimea begins with the annexation by the Russian Empire in 1783. In 1921 the Crimean Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic was created. This republic was dissolved in 1945, and the Crimea became an oblast first of the Russian SSR (1945–1954) and then the Ukrainian SSR (1954–1991). Since 1991 the territory was covered by the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and Sevastopol City within independent Ukraine. During the 2014 Crimean crisis, the peninsula was taken over by pro-Russian forces and a referendum on whether to join Russia was held. Shortly after the result in favour of joining Russia was announced, Crimea was annexed by the Russian Federation as two federal subjects: the Republic of Crimea and the federal city of Sevastopol".
I think this unfortunately is an end to the story. The Tsar, Russian aristocracy and later Soviet Oligarchs with plebs all regarded Crimea as Russian territory. Imagine if the Isle of Wight was given to Ireland? How would Britain react.
I think the downing of the Malaysian airliner was a stupid accident however I ask why was the airplane flying over a war zone?
As for Syria have we learnt nothing from Iraq. It would have been better to let Saddam Hussein rule and let him deal with Islamic fundamentalists. In Syria the UN and USA should support a secular government because an Islamic government is death for minorities. If the Baath party loses the Syria war there will be firing squads mass killing of minorities. The Baath Pary was founded by Michel Aflaq, a Syrian Christian, Salah al-Din al-Bitar, a Syrian Sunni, and Zaki al-Arsuzi, an alawite. All of these groups face death if the government falls. The USA and West are arming Islamic Militias and these as in Afghanistan will turn these on anyone who gets in the way of their agenda. Since when does the UN back revolt against a secular government encouraging civil war? This is a life and death struggle and Islam does not fight fairly or according to the Geneva convention. Islam fights to win at any cost. Mohamed fought dirty and with great brutality.

Josephus Muris Saliensis said...

Tornielli's whole perspective is based upon the modern phenomenon of 'popolatory', to which he has indeed much contributed. There is nothing in our tradition to say that we have to either like the Pope, or agree with the majority of the things he says, apart from those spoken magistrally, when we are agreeing not with him as Pope, but with the mind of the Church which he presents to us. Those who cannot think logically see everything as extremes of black and white. You disagree with some single act of the Socialist government so you are a right-wing extremist, you disagree with gay marriage so you are a homophobe bigot, you disagree with one of Pope Francis more unusual comments, so you are a fundamentalist sede-vacantist.

Has the West lost all intellectual rigour and perspective?

Nicolas Bellord said...

Pope Francis by reasserting the impossibility of ordaining women to the priesthood has truly scuppered any change of reunion with the Lutherans.

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