Monday, August 13, 2012

Catholic Dissenters in the Times

Far be it from me to ever suggest to anyone that "It is important to recognize dissent for what it is, and not to mistake it for a mature contribution to a balanced and wide-ranging debate", the Pope did that before his UK visit to the Bishops of England and Wales at their ad Limina visit to Rome.

In the Times this morning this little bit of dissent appeared signed by those listed below, most I know nothing about:
James Alison, Theologian & priest
Ruby Almeida, Chair of Quest (LGBT Catholics)
Tina Beattie, Theologian
Mike Castelli, Educationalist
Mark Dowd, Journalist
Michael Egan, Chair, Lesbian & Gay Christian Movement
Maria Exall, Chair, Trade Unions Congress LGBT Committee
John Falcone, Theologian
Eileen Fitzpatrick, Educationalist
Kieran Fitszimons, Priest
Mary Grey, Theologian
Kevin Kelly, Theologian & priest
Ted Le Riche, Retired educationalist
Bernard Lynch, Priest
Gerard Loughlin, Theologian
Francis McDonagh, Lay-person
Patrick McLoughlin, Priest
Anthony Maggs, Priest
Lorraine Milford, Lay-person
Frank Nally, Priest
Martin Prendergast, Chair, Centre for the Study of Christianity & Sexuality
Sophie Stanes, Lay-person
Joe Stanley, Lay-person
Valerie Stroud, Chair, Catholics for a Changing Church
Terry Weldon, Editor, Queering the Church
Matias Wibowo, Lay-person
Deborah Woodman, Clinical Psychologist
This is a clear attempt to undermine the bishops. Some like Ms Beattie are associated with a well known "Catholic" weekly, others I think are involved with the Soho Masses.


Et Expecto said...

If you look up the names that claim to be priests in the Catholic Directory, you will find that a number of them are not listed. The most likely explanation is that they are ordained priests who have been suspended from theit priestly state.

Lepanto said...

At least one of the priests listed already regards himself as being married to a man so he hasn't waited for any 'debate' to happen.

Ttony said...

Actually, Father, there might be a bit of good news here. You can think of a few names which might have been on this list who aren't. It may be that they weren't asked, but any list which includes Tina Beattie is a statement about the group associating with her.

As I say, at best only a bit of good news, but even after a disastrous flood, the water level begins to recede.

nickbris said...

What a shame we can't just chuck 'em on the barbie.

Fr Ray Blake said...

Ttony it is August.

Richard Collins said...

The usual suspects. At least we know them now for what they are and stand for.

The Raven (C. Corax) said...

They've scraped the barrel for the usual suspects here!

Has anyone else noticed that all of the dissenting Catholic organisations that keep springing up (StandUp4Vatican2, We Are Church, etc ad nauseam) all seem to be composed of the same individuals?

Jessica Hoff said...

Nothing unexpected here - liberals don't agree with Pope shock, horror! Next page, scoop - Pope revealed to be Catholic - see p. 5 for exclusive on bears and their habits in woods.

Nothing odd in Murdoch encouraging it, though I thought he was a Papal Knight?

Jacobi said...


In a sense this has more to do with the English language than with religion. A "perfectly round plane figure" is a circle and can never be an "equilateral rectangle", a square, even if the law says otherwise.

Equally, a contractual legal arrangement between two people of the same sex is just that, and is not, and can never be, a marriage, however much the law makes an ass of itself.

By the way their statement is dissent, and in so far as it is obstinately followed, is heretical. The seven priests should be sacked. True there is a shortage of priests but we would be better off without them. As for the "theologians", well we can all claim to be that nowadays, if we do a correspondence course or two!

Pablo the Mexican said...

Querido Padre,

Simply put, they do not kmow the Faith.

Does anyone?

I interviewed Miss Paula Haigh an American Theologian.

At youtube, in the search bar, type in Paula Haigh.

For your consideration.


Amfortas said...

Many are well known liberal Catholics so there isn't anything very surprising about their views. Oh look there are some liberals saying liberal things. Hardly earth shattering. What surprises me is that people bother to write these sorts of letters to The Times anymore. I thought it long ago ceased to be our newspaper of record.

Genty said...

You can find all the priest signatories on Google and a right self-justifying shower they are.

Anonymous said...

I understand that several of those people write for "The Capsule" which might be better known as a public convenience, hence the smell of verbal diarrhoeia

Anonymous said...

These persons cannot be called theo-logicians for the mere lack of logic. They cited Cardinal Hume that "love between two persons, whether of the same sex, or of a different sex, is to be treasured and respected." This may be true. But they did not present any analysis of what is meant by love here. There is, for example, no evidence that Cardinal Hume could indeed posit that sexual realtionships (which are involved in marriage), real or imagined, between persons of the same sex should be treated equally. But there is an ample evidence from the Scripture and numerous Church documents for the contrary.

Other arguments include Hume's (1) "are there reasonable grounds for judging that the institution of marriage and the family could, and would be undermined by a change in law?" But the answer is certainly "Yes," as the re-definition of marriage will threaten the family (unless "family" is also re-defined).

(2) "Would society’s rejection of a proposed change be more harmful to the common good than the acceptance of such a change?" Rejection will certainly not involve any harm. Especially because there is already a similar institution of civil partnership providing legal rights to such "couples."

(3) "Does a person’s sexual orientation or activity constitute, in specific circumstances, a sufficient reason for treating that person in any way differently from other citizens?" here the answer is "No." First, because persons wishing to get legal rights do already have all the rights with the civil partnership scheme.

Sorry, I do not see any logic or "evidence-based reasoning" in this letter. Only arbitrary statements without any serious grounds or analysis.

Pétrus said...

Has anyone ever seen any of these people together in the same room?

John Kearney said...

Tina Beattie teaches her `theology` to catholic students at Roehampton. You know the place the bishops took the Pope to show him our wonderful catholic education system. They run a day for Gays every year. She is a dying breed of feminists. Just ignore them.

Nicolas Bellord said...

Can anyone point me to where Cardinal Hume said what he is quoted as saying and the criteria he suggested?

I must say I am surprised that some allowed themselves to be associated with the names of others. To be seen as joining in the company of such as James Alison and Terry Weldon must surely be death to whatever reputation they themselves had.

Fr Ray Blake said...

Nicholas Fr Tim has an interesting post putting Cdl Hume's words in context.

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