In a conversation with our bishop recently, I thought he said that some parishes in the diocese were already using the new ICEL translations of the Missal, and that he had no problem with them being used ad experimentum, as they were now an official text which had received the recognitio of the Holy See, I had obviously grabbed the wrong end of the stick because a friend on ICEL, who had read the previous version of this post, told me Rome had not yet given permission for their use in England.
ICEL wants these texts to be used after appropriate catechesis next year. However, this morning because of my misunderstanding, I used the new translation of the Roman Canon. As there are the four Eucharistic Prayers in the Missal, plus the two prayers for Reconciliation, the three (is it?) for children, and then those ghastly Swiss ones, I thought that no-one in the congregation would object, and from the reactions I heard people thought it was a vast improvement.
Some people have suggested the translations are a bit lumpy, I found the Roman Canon immensely beautiful, so much so that I feel deprived not being able to use it tomorrow.
The problem I have is that it seems so natural to use the rubrics of the Usus Antiquior, the signs of the cross, for example at phrases like, "... bless these gifts, these offerings, these holy and unblemished sacrifices, ..."
I think it is going to be difficult to get people to change their responses, that is going to be the big catechetical problem, not what the priest says.PeoplesMassCard-NewTranslation
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31 comments:
It would be helpful to have people hand out the new texts with the correct responses as people come to Mass and also to identify the members of your parish who make the most audible responses, there are generally one or two people with louder voices than everyone else in my experience.
Get these people doing it right and the rest will follow.
Also maybe hook a senior alter server up to a microphone and have him lead the laity in making the correct response, not in any theatrical way just in the normal act of making them himself.
Dear Father
HOW dare you innovate and do things of your own accord without the express permission of the council of liturgists? Its bad enough that we are going to have these new accurate translations that will include terms that are hard to understand, but to introduce them before they are ment to be used, one would almost think you are a lefebvist !!
VL
I think singing the responses will help too.
We have prepared cards for the Communion Rite, with words and music for the Communion Rite.
While there is much to welcome in these new texts, as far as a more faithful translation is concerned, there is one other thing that I would like to see. It would be very simple to do but would, in my opinion, have great impact.
One of the consequences of the more chummy modern liturgy is that Jesus is seen as a man on our level and the presentation and style of the words underlines this fact.
In the Gloria, for example, it states:
"For you only are holy, you only are the Lord, you alone are high above all...." etc, etc.
In the more traditional prayer books the status of Jesus being God is more clearly stated by the use of leading caps when referring to Him. Eg:
For You only are holy, You only are the Lord, You alone are high above all.....etc. etc.
This is so simple to do and it would be another means of changing the culture from our 'friend' to someone who we worship and who died to save the sins of the world - including our own.
This has never been just about the quality of the English translations.
Secondly, no catechesis will take place.
Lastly, our PP's version of the liturgy is so eccentric I see nothing in these translations which will render it less so.
Are you saying that your "friend" is above your Bishop in some sense?
Singing the responses may help, with me though I must admit I wouldn't sing them.
I know that is probably wrong of me but I am not comfortable singing, I don't even like speaking the responses and tend just to whisper them.
Performing as part of a public display all makes me uncomfortable.
Just one of the lesser reasons I prefer mass in the extraordinary form.
From what you are saying it sounds as if it is easier to stick with the Latin texts or switch to the Extraordinary Form.
Irony of ironies!
This is really good to hear. As for 'it seems so natural to use the rubrics of the Usus Antiquior' remember the exmaple of Archbishop Malcolm Ranjith during the Mass of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin at Maria Vesperbild in Bavaria.
http://apostolate-of-the-laity.blogspot.com/2010/05/definitive-english-translation-of-3rd.html
http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2008/08/assumption-in-maria-vesperbild-with.html
I tend to agree with Sadie Vacantist in that I am extremely sceptical that ANY catechesis will take place, unless done at a local level.
It'll be a bit like a Le Mans start, but with people driving round the circuit both ways !
Dear Father
Does the new translation of the creed omit the word 'man'? Our PP says 'for us and for our salvation' instead of 'for us men and for our salvation'. I don't like this but maybe it's the new official version?
A friend used to speak of "the Novus Ordo with usages" - meaning, insert those multiple signs of the Cross, etc. "Just do it." After all, how did those signs arise? It seems natural to point at the elements at those words; hence the slow organic development of those crossings. It will happen again: I have seen priests point at the consecrated species when they are mentioned in the Anamnesis and Oblation; these gestures will gradually develop in the same manner as heretofore.
What is all this nonsense about a period of Catechesis?Indeed what does that word mean? We had two changes in the 60s ie changes first in the Latin of the EF usuage, and then the introduction of the Novus Ordo in English, and then if you like the change over from NLC translation to ICEL translation. So what is all the fuss about ?
Are we going to go right back to pre Vatican 2 ?
What about the requirement for Women to cover their heads?
The new Latin Mass is harder to follow than it ever was and the mind tends to wander quite a bit new words for the responses in the Vernacular Mass makes it even more boring.
In the Nicean Creed I notice the 'I' (credo) is at last corrected, but why still no 'life everlasting'? The latin does not say 'world to come'.
Nickbris:
I expect you think YOU will be the proper person to hold a gun to female heads?
Any male telling me to put something on my head before entering a church will be told by me what he can do with his little mantilla.
Hell can freeze over first.
Good liturgy is its own catechesis.
Fr. William Young said: "Good liturgy is its own catechesis." So very true!
Gem, I'm pretty sure Mr. Nickbris was being sarcastic about women being required to cover their heads at Mass. So you can relax. I actually wouldn't mind wearing a mantilla or hat (remember those?) if everyone else did, but those days are gone forever. A pity, IMO.
Thanks Karen,that is what I thought,we could of course go back to the stone-age to ensure saving the Planet.
Incidentally if it was not for US imposed sanctions on OPEC oil would be uneconomic to search for in outlandish places such as 1500m beneath the surface of the sea.
Women in mantillas look ravishing!
I know how hard it is to get people used to new responses. I frequently hear people say "We raise them up to the Lord" in response to "Lift up your hearts". This is forty years on!
I have used the translation for the priests parts since January. I was informed by a menber of the CDW that since it has a recognitio there is nothing to forbid us from using it. The Bishops and ICEL would like a nice transfer from one to the other and I apreciate that but at most they can request us not to use the new translations they cannot forbid us. So I would say Father continue using the translations for the Priests pasrts .
Fr G
Rereading these absurd translations one is left wondering what is the point?
The answer is to return to the traditional Mass complete with catechesis.
Crux Fidelis says he frequently hears people replying 'We raise them up to the Lord.' When I read that I wondered what was wrong as that is what I have always replied to the Sursum Corda in English.
On checking the order of Mass in my diary (which I never refer to as if it is in English why would I need to read it?) I see that I am guilty of saying it wrong all these years - and I had never even noticed! I wonder whether perhaps the first English translation was 'We raise them..' and that for some reason I missed the Mass in which it was changed to 'We lift them..' It's a bit late for me to change back now - I must find out what the new one will be and hopefully if it is 'raise' then I won't have any problem!
Oh dear! have just checked and see that I will have to change after all. Better late than never I suppose. I still think the word 'raise' is far superior to 'lift' in this context. 'Raising' is more poetic too - lifting implies a physical task whereas raising is less arduous and implies a more soaring motion.
You are right, pelerin. "Raise" was in one of the earler translations.
If you think the new translation is an improvement, you may like to show your support by joining this Facebook group
We like the new English translation of the Catholic Mass
Nick, don't even go there with me on US oil policy!!! Count me in the "Drill, baby, drill" category, which is certainly not the current policy, given the panty waisted green skinned maggot infested "save the whales" types that have got everything in a stranglehold. Western nations need to get our OWN oil, and then opec can go pound sand.
Sadie: But what would dear Paulie say? His idea was that women should NOT be calling attention to themselves by looking like something other than a burka enmeshed lumps in the corner. I think Paul must have had an older sister who regularly gave him "wedgies."
At any rate, why the need for endless catechesis on this. Just make an announcement along the lines of "the translations we've been using have been horrible, and we're going back to a better Latin/English translation" [the "new" translation is almost precisely the same as the little cards handed out to us in 1964!] Make the sheets available for about 6 months and BE DONE WITH IT.
If they hadn't have mucked up the *original* translations in the first place, they wouldn't be the mess they are now. Although "good luck" with that "consubstantial with" business.
Gem, what on earth are you on about and what has it to with the new translation? Now I have this image of a whale, or possibly a mermaid, with panties and a burka, which would make it hard for the creature to swim but might be a good thing.
These animals get up to disgusting activities in the sea. A dolphin called Freddie was involved in a sex scandal in Amble, Northumberland and led to a sensational trial at Newcastle upon Tyne Crown Court in 1991.
There is obscene depiction of heraldic dolphins on the shield of the former Brighton Borough Council. This is on the seafront railings, for all see.
Crux Fidelis - That explains it then! I must have absorbed the first translation and missed any announcement of the next one! And they say the older you get the more difficult it is to memorise things!
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