Sunday, October 14, 2012

Ecumenical [Οἰκουμενικόν] means "Worldwide"

My Greek is not that hot but I do know Οἰκουμενικόν as in Ecumenical Council means "Worldwide" or "General" Council, it doesn't mean the same as getting together with other Christians as this guy implies. This is the type of ignorant tosh that gives ignorant tosh pedlars a bad name.
I've heard it countless times before.

It rather puts you off of buying a second-hand dodgy Cathedral from him, though possibly it makes him a good candidate to buy one.
p.s. What is a "worship space"?

sorry if I'm just being unkind


John said...

Agreed, and goofy ideas lead to goofy behaviour.

It never ceases to amaze me how often clergy still cling to the "spirit" of things like some gnostic new-ager while ignoring the letter (meat and potatoes) of the Council.

Pope Benedict's recent call for a return to the actual documents of the Council are a timely and much needed reminder that we're done with the junk food theology and candy liturgy produced by so-called "liturgists".

With regards to the "worship space" (...employ any ol' banal neologism to avoid calling it a church, sanctuary, nave, etc.), the former Crystal Cathedral needs a major (utter and complete!) retrofit to make it a Catholic church.

Why couldn't they have hired Duncan Stroik to design a new cathedral?

Fr. J. Guy Winfrey said...

The purchase of the "Crystal Cathedral" is a scandal to those who would live the faith as something which is continuous from the Apostles.

It is also something of incredibly poor taste aesthetically. But to the point of the word "Οἰκουμενικόν", being an Orthodox priest, may I point out that the word has reference to household economy. An ecumenical council is called such because it applies to the entire household, the entire family of the Church. "Catholicos" may be understood to mean universal, not ecumenical.

To refer to "getting together" as ecumenical is absolute drivel. Properly, ecumenical work—as it is now styled—is that which is focused on restoring the entire household to health within the Church. It is not being nice and cooperative, but working through difficult items so that there can be a common household with the same treasury (the Sacramental life of the Church).

Fr Ray Blake said...

Yes, yes, Father Winfrey but that is hardly sense in which the Blessed John XXIII called VII. Nor would it have been historically understood in the terms expressed in the video by either East or West.
It is certainly not unrelated to the idea of the inner maintenance and care of the καθολικός.

There is certainly a very great difference in its use as an adjective to describe a Council and as you say "ecumenical work—as it is now styled".
Οἰκουμενικόν is certainly not unrelated to the idea of the inner maintenance and care and nurture of the καθολικός. Indeed all previous Councils have been concerned to define quite what are the boundaries of the authentic καθολικός.

It is worth noting that at Trent both Orthodox Bishops and Protestant leaders were invited to participate with assurances of peaceful conduct and reception, at VII they were only invited as observers and in a few particular case as consultants.

From my understanding of Nicea and the first seven Ecumenical Councils the invitation list was somewhat limited to those who were at least judged to be authentic Bishops.

Pablo the Mexican said...

These folks like Vatican Council II:

Grande Oriente d'Italia
Grand Orient of Italy

October 11, 2012
The Second Vatican Council, a common heritage for Catholic and secular

"The Second Vatican Council taught the believers the value of dialogue as a method that makes possible the encounter between men, beyond any belief or affiliation, to feel part of a community on the move. We lay taught recognize the humanity of the Church. After fifty years, this message of peace, harmony and brotherhood among all men is more alive than ever and you need to react to the crisis of values that threatens our modern world. "He said Gustavo Raffi, Grand Master of the Grand Orient of Italy, remembering the anniversary of the work of the Second Vatican Council.

"The Council - said Raffi - forced the men of the Church in comparison with the company when this was opening up to modernity. Among the results, a new conception of an institution that was likely to remain closed in the ivory tower of the doctrine and instead decided to open its doors to men. regrettable to note today that this great push towards a more humane vision of the Church was then replaced by a dogmatic entrenchment, a priori attitude of closure, "said the Grand Master of the Palace Giustiniani.

"Freemasonry, for centuries, teaches us to look beyond the horizons of the dogmas and differences - noted Raffi - opening the heart to the encounter with the other, with a new provision of knowledge and respect. Wish the Church to return to open to the world, inspired by just that brief and courageous spring represented by the Vatican and too often forgotten by the example of Pope Paul VI, and who is willing to talk, without prejudice, and with all men of good will. "

As for me and my house, we shall follow the Lord.

"...It never ceases to amaze me how often clergy still cling to the "spirit" of things like some gnostic new-ager while ignoring the letter (meat and potatoes) of the Council..."

You cannot drink from a glass filed with poison mixed in, and state yo will only digest that part which is good, and not the poison.

Vatican Council II.

Look around you and decide what have been it's fruits.


Dr. Adam DeVille said...

Right you are: oikoumené in the antique period refers simply to "whole inhabited world," referring, more or less, to the Mediterranean basin. It is highly anachronistic to interpret "ecumenical" in the first millennium according to the modern meaning (from circa 1910) of "let's get all Christians together for 'denominational' unity."

Pablo the Mexican said...

The Roman Catholic History of Los Angeles, Cuidad de Nuestra Senora Santa Maria de Los Angeles is very interesting, and largely unknown.

This City has been a battle ground between Roman Catholicism and Judaism since the city was founded.

Gnostics have made certain to suppress Truth so well, when Truth is revealed, it is rejected, especially by people that are harmed the most by lies.


Anonymous said...

I wish all "ecumaniacs" would read the Decree on Ecumenism of Vat. ll, especially the introduction!

Fr Julian Green said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Fr Julian Green said...

I thought we had Churches, not 'worship spaces'. It is important, because a Church as a building is the sacramental representation of the Church which is the body of Christ, which is built by God. A 'worship space' - in so far as it is comprehensible as a term - is something we choose to create, to do something human - offer a 'service' to God. A semi-pelagian Church for a semi-pelagian understanding of liturgy.

He also does not understand what ecumenical means.

Robert said...

Your not being unkind Father. Your just as amazed as the rest of us with this type of crowd. "Worship space" comes from the terminology of the LA Liturgical Congress. If you ever checked out their videos, FrZ has posted them, they use that very word. God forbid if they call it a temple of God, or use the term holy of holies. When I read about how the SSPX are always in the cross hairs of the Bishops. And groups like this are not. My blood pressure sky rockets. So I pay no attention to them. And try to avoid their type like the plague. Even if we are suppose to be charitable.

Sue Sims said...

I think that 'worship space' has an older history than the LA Liturgical Congress. You won't be surprised to discover that it was a fashionable word among architects during the 1960s and 70s: it doesn't mean 'church building' but 'the area in a church, temple, synagogue, etc, where the liturgy takes place' and was, I think, devised because it could be applied to any religious building. However, it was made fashionable among Protestants long before the more, ahem, advanced Catholics decided it was the perfect way of getting rid of all that old business of, well, worship.

Mike Cliffson said...

Did I hear the other priest(?) takliking about ACUMEN ism?

Sixupman said...

Father, I have just returned from Mass [Parish Feast Day] where the ageing PP gave a rousing sermon on The Sacred Heart and Confession. He has a great sense of humour and can charm the birds off the trees.

Your 'opener' had me in stitches. My Diocesan Cathedral was reorganised to create a very large "worship space" and destroyed the soul of the place. Great for Chrism Masses, I suppose.

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