Friday, October 05, 2012

Spirit of the Council stuff

Many people assume the "Spirit of Council" stuff is just arbitrary, a bit mindless, without any foundation but is very much the fruit of Bologna School, it works on the almost Manichaean premise that there were good and bad Council Fathers; in order to get good, liberal, modern doctrines through the Council it was necessary for the  good, liberal, modern Fathers to get on board the bad, conservative, out of date Fathers, therefore to discover the true "Spirit of the Council" one must subtract the doctrines that were imposed by the bad, conservative, out of date Fathers. Thus in documents like Gaudium et Spes which attempt to give a "both and" theology, the Spirit of the Council followers would take only the good, liberal, modern strand.
Thus ideas that have been part of normal parish life in many places for a generation but have no mandate from the Council, or are directly contrary to it, such as Communion in the hand, the use or misuse of Extraordinary Ministers, the extinction in most places of Chant, of Latin, even of Confession, of Marian devotion, of worship of the Blessed Sacrament, of the admission to Holy Communion of those in serious sin or non-Catholics, the preferring of the Local Church over the Universal,, the stressing of human authorship of scripture over the divine, a sociological rather than a pneumatic interpretation of Revelation or even such ideas as the abandonment of clerical celibacy, the admission of women to Holy Orders, denial of Sacramental Grace, all these are the fruit of the "Spirit of the Council".

I do not believe those conspiracy theories that see the pre- and immediately post-Concilliar period as being a time of direct Communist infiltration of the Church but I do believe that Marxist-Leninism dominated western thought throughout the 20th century and in the school of theology that had its home Bologna la Rossa one must see a clear theological expression of basic Communist principles: seeing the Church in Marxist terms of the masses at war with the institution, and perpetual revolution: Ecclesia Semper Reformanda. When such principles are applied to the Church ultimately there is no Church.


Sadie Vacantist said...

I don’t accept the Malachi Martin school of conspiracy theory which includes masons, modernists and communists. The Council became a victim of its time and its striking to note how non-Catholics such as a Muggeridge or a Solzhenitsyn saw the disaster unfolding but those on the inside refused to listen. The damage continues unabated despite the emergence of this and other excellent blogs. The sermon I had to listen to last Sunday was an abomination.

Anonymous said...

Neither do I have much use for the Marxist conspiracy. Rather, the 20th-century was the battle royale of three super-power ideologies: Communism, Fascism, and Western liberal democracy. In the 21-st century only one of them is still around: ours. So, given that the other two were evil empires, it must follow that the democratic spirit (the one that inspires the Spirit of Vatican II) was the good one proven by victory, right? Right?

Pablo the Mexican said...

"...I don’t accept the Malachi Martin school of conspiracy theory..."

Father Martin was given unprecedented authority by the Holy Father.

No one, not even the Jewish Freemasons infiltrated in the Vatican could resist his efforts.

He should not be discounted as a 'conspiracy theorist'.

Masonic Lodges meet frequently; do you think they gather together and sing 'Kumbaya'?


John Kearney said...

Let us not be put off the root question by asking who was behind the Spirit of Vatican II. Every enemy of the Church was involved I would say, so do not point the finger but rather read again what Pope Pius X had to say on Modernism. That was the movement in which they all could be found. It is good that at last we are begining to question the Spirit of Vatican II as distinct from the Documents of Vatican II, using this distinction well will drive the Modernists out.

Frederick Jones said...

Pablo - are Our Lord, Our Lady and the Apostles among the Jewish conspirators you trace in the Vatican/

Sadie Vacantist said...

The problem with conspiracy theories (even if they are true) is they are self-obsessed in their analysis. The Church does not exist in a vacuum. Other institutions and even countries collapsed ideologically from 1965 onwards. The USA, for example, during the Johnson administration reaffirmed the Roosevelt doctrine of government intervention (for “New Deal” read “Big Society”) and permanent war. A synthesis which is destroying a once great nation. The Catholic Church is destroying itself in its own way.

ServusMariaeN said...

It would be a grave mistake to think that Masonry has had no hand in the destruction of the Church in the last decades. Bishop Rudolf Graber of Regensburg (a predecessor to Archbishop Mueller) himself a very wise and holy man was very aware of this. If anyone have any doubts about that read his book, "Athanasius and the Church of Our Time". It is one thing to rely completely on conspiracy theories to explain the madness in the Church of the past 50 years and quite another to discount everything as lunacy.

vetusta ecclesia said...

A similar good / bad dichotomy may be observed in Bugnini's monumental self apologia The Reform of the Liturgy. When he gets his way God is at work; when he is opposed or thwarted it is the work of evil.

Damask Rose said...

"The USA, for example, during the Johnson administration reaffirmed the Roosevelt doctrine of government intervention (for “New Deal” read “Big Society”..."

Yes, Communism.

Bolshevik Zionists. You can read about the "Frankfurt School" and its effects on today's Western society below.

Quote: "Lukacs was well-suited to the Comintern task: he had been one of the Commissars of Culture during the short-lived Hungarian Soviet in Budapest in 1919; in fact, modern historians link the shortness of the Budapest experiment to Lukacs' orders mandating sex education in the schools, easy access to contraception, and the loosening of divorce laws—all of which revulsed Hungary's Roman Catholic population."

Another fascinating article:

(I found these Googling, but look up Frankfurt School for yourselves.)

The Frankfurt School had specific goals, aims and unfortunately profoundly affected Western thought. It's Marx, Weber etc. Think about the paralysing damage "political correctness" does.

The Frankfurt School stitched up modern society.

Personally I think that "critical theory" entered seminaries/theology and so, for example, you have all this critiquing of the Bible/Gospels that coldly reduces the biblical texts and thus diminishes faith (a long-term goal of the Frankfurt School perhaps and thus being the next step up from the Renaissance. Let's not forget that Masonic ministers threw out the Jesuits from France and changed the Jesuit system of education to a secular one. Ultimately they executed their King.)

Pablo the Mexican said...

"...Pablo - are Our Lord, Our Lady and the Apostles among the Jewish conspirators you trace in the Vatican..."

"...essentially, Pablo is a Protestant...."

The curtain in the Synagogue ripped from top to bottom at the death of Christ.

From that instant onwards, Christ, His Mommy, the Apostles and followers were Catholic.

God left the Jews.

The Jews now worship a false God.

Jewry and Catholicism are not homogenous; they are two separate things.

is a Protestant...."

Look at the body of my work.

By our fruits you shall know us:

Thank you for not offending me by calling me a Novus Ordo Roman Protestant.


Frederick Jones said...

Are the promises of non effect? God forbid. St Paul. I think Pablo that your suggestion that God left the Jews would amuse if not scandalise biblical scholars such as Pope Benedict. Read his book on Our Lord.On what authority do you make your assertion? Incidentally it was the veil of the temple which was rent in twain , it was not a synagogue such as the apostles for many years attended.

Sadie Vacantist said...

Guys - it's unrealistic to expect the Catholic Church to troubleshoot the pernicious influence of certain 20th century intellectual movements. This is the mistake Richard Williamson makes.

Damask Rose said...

"'s unrealistic to expect the Catholic Church to troubleshoot the pernicious influence of certain 20th century intellectual movements."

Dead straight. Very true statement.

1. Paul VI followed his Ostpolitik and abandoned Cardinal Mindszenty.

2. John XXIII called Sr Lucia, Jacinta and Francisco "prophets of doom" prior to Vatican II.

3. And the current papacy has had a few close calls with mentioning something that sounds a lot like the NWO.

At least Our Lady at Fatima decided to "...troubleshoot the pernicious influence of certain 20th century intellectual movements."

Sadie Vacantist said...

Rose - point taken!

What irks me is that some are using the 50th anniversary to bail the Council out like a central banker bailing out the banks. Even the new translation of the Mass looks like yet more "liquidity" to reinflate the disaster.

Perhaps 'restraint of pen and tongue' is the best to which we can aspire but instead we were given the most verbose council in history and it goes on and on and on ...

Anonymous said...

I have read the documents of Vatican II. I've read the work of previous Councils and expressions of the Magisterium. There are a number of statements in Vatican II - taken in context - that are very difficult to resolve with those prior Magisterial expressions. Many of these statements are in critical areas where we have seen some of the very worst problems in the Church. There are also a number of instances in which documents of Vatican II seem to contradict each other, or, as in Guadium Et Spes, there are contradictory statements within the same document! Even Archbishop Muller referred to this in his recent interview at NCR.

One can speak of the 'hermeneutic of continuity' all one wants, but until these contradictions, or misunderstood points, or whatever, are clarified by the highest authority in the Church, we will have difficulty righting the ship of Faith, because good chunks of the Church will continue trying to drive that ship in the wrong direction.

I, too, tire of speaking of the Council. There were 20 others! In spite of the histrionics about Vatican II being the greatest council ever, those 20 others have just as much weight. I fear all this shall not even begin to be sorted out for another 30 years or so, until another generation passes from the scene.

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