Friday, January 23, 2009

Fellay's Reply



This is Bishop Fellay's response to Bishop Williamson's holocaust denying

The interview: interview with Swedish Television, click to enlarge.

I am not quite sure he is backing Williamson, but I don't think he is distancing himself either.


25 comments:

Volpius Leonius said...

When all you have got is each other you tend not to hang each other out to dry.

Whatever he feels about Bishop Williamson Bishop Fellay no doubt realises that Williamson cares more about the SSPX than the people who are criticising him ever will.

I'm not to fond of the SSPX but you have to admire loyalty when you see it.

Henry said...

What a creep - look at the body language.

gemoftheocean said...

The Vid. and the letter are proof positive to me why the SSPX can go fly a kite as far as I am concerned. They're their own little cult.

It's a form of protestantism, really. There's no way to muzzle Williamson, they're all their own popes. No one is really in charge. A pope could call such bishop to task. Forget their "outward piety" inwardly, there's something rotten to the core. And I think Bishop Fellay cares more about the SSPX too, for a different reason, otherwise he'd have outright denounced him, instead of pulling his hand wringing whaddayagonnado act with the "you guys didn't play fair." Apparently, Swedish television didn't get the "Rule book." Williamson is a nut job, and Fellay shouldn't be giving him cover, but he is, all the same.

Volpius Leonius said...

So the Church is now supposed to excommunicate people for having a different historical opinion to the popular one now?

I would not expect a Pope to call someone to task for this, The Pope is the protector of faith and morals. Denying the use of Gas Chambers is not part of the deposit of Faith last I checked. It's not even a Catholic issue, its a matter of personal opinion.

If we are honest with ourselves most of us only accept the existence of gas chambers on faith, after all we weren't there and cannot know for certain one way or another. It all comes down to do you have faith in the popular history or do you have faith in something else.

Given that the popular history also accuses Pope Pius XII of helping Hitler or our current Pope of been a Nazi I'm not sure I have much faith in the people writing it.

George said...

I happen to be of Polish background, both parents are Polish and found themselves in England, like many other Poles just after WW11. They settled here as Poland was too dangerous to go back to especially as my father (a teenager at the time)fought in the bitter battle of the Warsaw uprising, while the Russian Red army stood by on the other side of the Wistula waiting for the Poles to be wiped out before coming in to 'liberate' them. I was born in London and brought up with Polish as my first language until I went to school. Both Mum and Dad had heart rending stories to tell about their time during the war, losing family and friends. In 1971 as a 17 year old I went to Poland with my brothers and parents for a long family holiday which included a visit to Aushwitz - where my father in law's 16 year old brother was murdered by being shot and later burned in the ovens. My father's parents both suffered in the concentration camps, my grandfather died there while my grandmother survived the Bergen-Belsen camp and spent a number of weeks thanks to the Red Cross recuperating in Sweden (a big thank you to any Swedish readers).

She returned to Poland, a very different Poland under Russian Communist rule and in time she warned my father through letters despite the censorship, who by that time was preparing to leave England to return home (late 1940's), to stay put, which he did, sadly never to see his mother and one surviving brother again as both died just a couple of years or so before we visited Poland.

My uncle (also a teenager at the time) survived five years in Dachau concentration camp and the letters he wrote to his mother were on display at a Polish war exhibition in London for a number of years. Ther's more, but this comment to Fr Ray's post is already too long.

Let no one tell me that the Holocaust, the gas chambers, the ovens, the sheer unimaginable horror and human suffering didn't happen. I stood in those gas chambers, saw the empty cannisters of Zyklon B cyanide gas crystals. I saw the ovens, the thousands of photos on the walls including no doubt though I didn't know it at the time a photo of a young boy, my wife's young uncle whom she would never know and I stood there and I cried as did everyone who was visiting that 'real life' chamber of horrors.

I find the kind of denial put forward by Bishop Williamson just sickening. But why, why would he do this? When the personal testimonies of thousands are there for all to see. What my family and their friends went through - how could anyone make this stuff up? Why would you want to? It happened and it is historical fact. The Williamsons of this world will have some answering to do in the fullness of time.

Other than this issue which is really nothing to do with SSPX and what they stand for, I can't find any fault with the SSPX and their love and propagation of the Latin Mass should be applauded.

Papa Bendict knows what he is doing, he is a wise and holy Vicar of Jesus Christ and I will stick by him.

Dymphna said...

One of my great uncles became odd in his latter years. He got rid of his hen house and moved the chickens into his livingroom. The rest of the family bristled if anybody outside made fun but they also kept a distance. I think it got down to my grandfather stopping by once a week to see if Uncle was alive. Perhaps, that's what's going on with Fellay but I wish that someone would retire Williamson. Whatever good the SSPX does he blows it all away. He's got a thing about Judaism,educated women and his views on 9/11 are what you'd expect from someone who lives in his grandparent's basement.

Henry said...

Nobody says that kind of thing unless they have an agenda of an unpleasant kind.

Arethusa said...

I think Bp Williamson, aside from his fanciful imagination, has too much free time and not enough supervision.

Terry Nelson said...

"The Society of St. Pius X will not renounce its intention to bring the true Catholic faith and sacraments to Swedish Catholics who have a right to both." - Bishop Fellay
.
So does that mean Swedish Catholics had a false Catholic faith and illicit sacraments before the SSPX came to their rescue?

Henry said...

If that is the SSPX attitude then how can the schism be de-schismed?

In my experiece the Swedish clergy are quite easy about the EF mass so I don't know what he can be going on about. There is quite a lot of it and Novus Ordo Latin because so many of the clergy are not too good with the vernacular and neither are a lot of people in the congregations.

gemoftheocean said...

VL

"If we are honest with ourselves most of us only accept the existence of gas chambers on faith, after all we weren't there and cannot know for certain one way or another. It all comes down to do you have faith in the popular history or do you have faith in something else."

The sick part is you are serious.

As regards it being "depoist of faith" I think it's "deposit of faith" that we are to follow the 10 commandments. One of which is about bearing false witness. Williamson is bearing false witness, and frankly you are either monumentally ignorant, or so blinded by anti-semitism you refuse to see the truth. this isn't something like "vanilla ice cream is best." I always wondered who read the protocols of the Elders of Zion and took them seriously. Now I have a pretty good idea.

Riccardo said...

Surely such a delusional state of mind would render Williamson incapable of exercising the office of bishop. So even though the excomunication has been lifted the Holy See could point out that his mental health prohibits him from exercising the office. Perhaps that would help to calm the waters.

Volpius Leonius said...

He is only bearing false witness if he really does belief that 6 million Jews rather than the 300,000 he says were killed. That is if he is deliberately lying.

If he merely has a different opinion of what happened, there is no sin in that, he may be mistaken, he may have terrible judgement, he may be an idiot, but none of those things are sinful, nor does it bar him from been in communion with the Catholic Church.

I assure you I have no hate towards the Jews or any other Semitic people. As to ignorance, well what am I ignorant of exactly? History is written by the victor is that not so?

There are as many versions of history as there are people with different opinions, studying history in England as a Catholic you learn that fact pretty quickly.

The protestant revolution was a wonderful thing according to all the text books, and Elizabeth was good Queen Bess but the Catholic Mary was bloody Mary who slaughtered protestants by the thousands did you know that?

So yes if we are honest history ultimately comes down to who do we trust? Who do we place our faith in. I do not consider that ignorance I consider that been realistic. If you think otherwise then you have a right to your opinion, as do we all.

Truth is I have not studied the matter of the holocaust at all, and unless I do which is not likely as I prefer more ancient history I have no opinion on it, other than that the death of innocents is always a great tragedy.

But if I was ever to study it I would hope to be able to study ALL of the sources and make my own mind up.

Arethusa said...

But Volpius, other responsible and reputable people, scholars with with honor and integrity and no personal stake in the matter, have made that study and the conclusion comes down overwhelmingly on the side of gas chambers having existed. The truth is not relative, there are no multiple truths - this is a lie that modernism has allowed to flourish. Something either happened, or it did not happen. Williamson and his ilk are cranks.

Henry said...

One of our parishioners was in Auschwitz as a teenage girl and when she was ill was taken to see the gas chambers and told that was where she would go if she didn't work. There must be many eye witnesses still alive even now. It was not a made up story and it is a wicked thing to suggest that it was, and persons who do this cannot be excused or defended.

It is an insult not just to Jews but to the many Polish Catholics who suffered the same way.

Elizabeth said...

In THE BOOK OF DESTINY - AN INTERPRETATION OF THE APOCALYPSE, by Father H. B. Kramer (Imprimatur January, 1956), Father Kramer states that "Satan will probably, through the evil world powers of the time, enforce the acceptance of unchristian morals, false doctrines, compromise with error. Through false doctrines and principles, Satan will mislead the clergy. Satan can vent more malice against the Church indirectly through bishops and priests than by his own power." And St. Pius X said: "A holy priest makes a holy people, and a priest who is not holy is not on useless, he is harmful to the world."

Volpius Leonius said...

Like I said Arethusa I have not studied it so I am sure you know about it more than me, but my point still stands even if he is wrong in his opinion he has that freedom as a Catholic to be wrong about historical matters which have no bearing on the Catholic Faith. The Church does not punish people for been wrong or denying something like this, that would make the Church no better than a cult.

gemoftheocean said...

V.L. -- a "mistake" is thinking New York City is the capital of New York STate. When zillions of people know it is Albany, and it is in fact Albany, and you are presented with this information, you are an imbecile if you persist in your belief. It is of no moral consequence one way or the other if someone is going to be bullheaded about persistent ignorance in such a matter. To be belligerently bullheaded in such matters as the Holocaust, soemthing in living memory of millions (as others here have stated) means you are on the side of giving aid and comfort to islamofascists and other Jew Haters, and to be most likely a Jew hater yourself, despite feeble protestations. I suppose you believe the moon landings were fabrications too, since you weren't there. Williamson and his ilk not being denounced outright by the SSPX are one reason I think they should NEVER be taken back without them prostrating themselves and admitting they were wrong to deny the authority of the pope, and they should have had to purge themselves of the Williamson cultists.

gemoftheocean said...

VL: Are you a complete troll, claiming that you don't know enough about the holocaust to make up your own mind? I can't imagine anyone over 10 being that ignorant.

Henry said...

Volpius, you had better come over and talk to our parishioner who was a witness, you can tell she was not making up a story. And a priest is not a private individual but a representative and is seen as such. To deny the holocaust in public is wicked and brings disgrace on the church.

George said...

Henry extends Volpius a very reasonable offer - come talk to a holocaust survivor.

I also extend an invite to Volpius - come and speak to my father who lost his father in a Nazi concentration camp, one of his brother's in the Warsaw uprising and whose mother was a concentration camp survivor. My Dad will give you the brutal facts
my friend, his personal testimony from experiences witnessed and suffered first hand in Poland during WW11.

This denial thing is 'absurd' beyond belief, as many others have rightly pointed out. Yes it was unbelievably barbaric and evil in the extreme but it happened. Someone has said that Catholics cannot believe human beings could be so evil - DO THEY THEN BY THIS SAME SILLY INFERENCE ALSO DENY THE PASSION AND CRUCIFIXION OF OUR BLESSED LORD, because surely such evil acts could not have been carried out by people????

Volpius do you also deny the extermination of millions of Russians by Stalin, the killing fields of Cambodia, Pol Pot, Idi Amin's brutal regime, Rwanda, and much closer to home the recent atrocities in the Balkans. Who could be so evil as to destroy the Twin Towers with thousands of people inside? It never happened - well where are the two buildings and all those people now?

This is precisely why God sent His only Son, because of evil and to redeem us.

Lest we forget that satan is the prince of this world............

Michael Petek said...

Volpius Leonius, the Church doesn't punish people for being wrong, but the German authorities do.

The Daily Telegraph reports (26 January) that Bishop Williamson is under investigation for denying the Holocaust while on German soil.

Holocaust denial is a criminal offence in Germany, and if Williamson is convicted the Holy Father might relieve him altogether of his clerical status.

Volpius Leonius said...

Just for the record, I have not denied a thing so asking me questions like "Do you also deny.." are not warranted.

I have no doubt this will drive you all to absolute fury but it needs pointing out, unless the people some of you have invited me to talk to witnessed 6 million people been gassed talking to them would do nothing to prove that did in fact happen. All it would prove was that the nazis were evil and killed innocent human beings as if they were animals, but no one is disputing this.

Even Wiliamson accepts that the Nazis killed Jews as he clearly states in the video.

gemoftheocean said...

VL: I suppose you're now going to claim ignorance of demography too. Censuses and such like pre-WWII and post.
I bet you can even say "Judenrein" if you worked yourself up a bit.

Volpius Leonius said...

Like I said Gem yes I am ignorant of such things, why would I have read German census its not exactly the kind of thing people do every day is it? Is ignorance a crime now? Or an excuse to hate, revile and falsely accuse a person?

But I will point out that people missing from a census is flimsy evidence at best. If you look at the Irish population records before and after the Great Famine you will find roughly 2 million of the population went missing but they weren't all executed in gas chambers by the English, though it has been labelled a holocaust.

Even though I am Irish and my family suffered personally in the Irish Holocaust I don't get all mad at people who don't consider it to have been a holocaust or call on the Church to punish them.